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bill413
Jun 2, 2009, 1:12 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: The first rule of any rescue is not to make more patients.....
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 1:16 AM
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bill413 wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: The first rule of any rescue is not to make more patients..... Quoted so I can (maybe) find this again.
Ha, are you being serious or poking fun at it? I can't tell. With any rescue you call the person a patient rather than a victim....
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bill413
Jun 2, 2009, 1:19 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: bill413 wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: The first rule of any rescue is not to make more patients..... Quoted so I can (maybe) find this again. Ha, are you being serious or poking fun at it? I can't tell. With any rescue you call the person a patient rather than a victim....
I know the way I've been posting tonight may make it hard to tell  , but I do like this terse summation of one of the priorities of rescue work.
Bill
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jun 2, 2009, 1:19 AM)
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hafilax
Jun 2, 2009, 1:22 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: hafilax wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Prussicing down is infinately safer and more controled. Worst case senario is that it ultimately takes you an extra 10-15 minutes to get down. Because of harness hang syndrome you may not have that much time if the person is unconscious. The first rule of any rescue is not to make more patients.....
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bill413
Jun 2, 2009, 1:42 AM
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That's pretty interesting - one wrap per biner. Majid was talking about twisting the wraps in both directions, presumptively to try & cancel out the twisting of the rope. Wonder what statement about biner orientaion would work then.
One twist per biner might be more manageable than 4 in terms of lifting the weight.
But, I'd like to know that Majid's method could be demonstrated to work, and that it could be built with a human weight on the end of the rope.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 1:55 AM
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hafilax wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: hafilax wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: Prussicing down is infinately safer and more controled. Worst case senario is that it ultimately takes you an extra 10-15 minutes to get down. Because of harness hang syndrome you may not have that much time if the person is unconscious. The first rule of any rescue is not to make more patients..... Your statement made it sound like 15 minutes is no big deal whereas it can be life or death. I'm not saying that there is a better way but that time is of the essence with somebody unconscious in a harness.
It might sound heartless, but it. doesn't. matter.
Take the time and make smart choices. Keep your head. Don't rush things, you're just going to end up with patients instead of one.
So no, I wouldn't say your 15 minutes might be life or death comment is relevant.
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rgold
Jun 2, 2009, 2:02 AM
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If you are going to rely on some rappelling method for a loaded line, you had better practice it in a variety of circumstances so you know what might happen and how to recover. Since very few people (including me) are going to do this, prussiking down, time-consuming or not, remains the only safe choice.
Just to sidetrack the thread a little bit by bringing up a pet peeve, halifax's comments about harness hang syndrome, aka suspension trauma, indicates why harness friction knot rappel backups are a bad idea for everyone except possibly the first person down.
Once someone is down, they can give a "fireman's belay." If the rappeller is rendered unconscious, they can still be lowered under control. The alternative is having to prussik up to the hanging person and then figure out a way to get them down, a process that could easily put the victim (patient? They had better be patient!) into suspension trauma danger. Such a rescue would also use up a lot of time and so might put the party in considerable danger from other sources.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 2:11 AM
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erma..... but how are knots at the end of the rope going to keep someone from getting down to you?
Better to be unconscious at the end of a rope rather than going splat 400' below you......
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yokese
Jun 2, 2009, 2:23 AM
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That's why he specified "except possibly the first person down"
(This post was edited by yokese on Jun 2, 2009, 2:24 AM)
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bill413
Jun 2, 2009, 2:25 AM
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This is an interesting thought. So, in this procedure anyone rapping subsequent to the first rappeller could be lowered down by releasing the fireman's belay, or controlled by tightening it.
Given that I usually go with the most experienced person going down first (to find the anchors, deal with problems), it makes sense.
Of course, convincing people to not use rappel backups is a tough battle now-a-days.
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gwyn
Jun 2, 2009, 2:27 AM
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When doing refresher light urban search and rescue courses, it is always stressed that your order of priority/concern is: me, my partner, my team then the subjects.
This is worth repeating:
In reply to: Take the time and make smart choices. Keep your head. Don't rush things, you're just going to end up with patients instead of one.
I was once in a situation where I didn't know the walk off and, in trying to get down to my fallen partner, I went the wrong way. I found myself on some moss-covered slab looking at a sketchy traverse with a nasty fall potential. I stopped, thought I don't need to add to this, backtracked to a safer position, called for some guidance on how to get down (there were other climbers around), and got down safely. Got to watch that adrenaline-driven tunnel vision.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 2:47 AM
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gwyn wrote: When doing refresher light urban search and rescue courses, it is always stressed that your order of priority/concern is: me, my partner, my team then the subjects. This is worth repeating: In reply to: Take the time and make smart choices. Keep your head. Don't rush things, you're just going to end up with patients instead of one. I was once in a situation where I didn't know the walk off and, in trying to get down to my fallen partner, I went the wrong way. I found myself on some moss-covered slab looking at a sketchy traverse with a nasty fall potential. I stopped, thought I don't need to add to this, backtracked to a safer position, called for some guidance on how to get down (there were other climbers around), and got down safely. Got to watch that adrenaline-driven tunnel vision.
So very true Gwyn! When something happens people frequently go into one of two modes, panic or hero. Instead they need to go into, "stop, think, make rational decissions, and don't make the situation worse"
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colatownkid
Jun 2, 2009, 2:48 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: erma..... but how are knots at the end of the rope going to keep someone from getting down to you? Better to be unconscious at the end of a rope rather than going splat 400' below you......
rgold does not mean "backup knots" in the sense that you have tied knots into the ends of the rope. he means "backups" in the sense that you are using a friction hitch above or below your rappel device to hold your weight should you be unable to do so.
suppose you are the second person rappelling in a team of two. halfway down a 60m rappel you are rendered unconscious (rockfall, hypoglycemia, epilepsy, take your pick). luckily, you have an autoblock on your leg loop which holds your weight. you are now 30m above your partner. it takes your partner a solid 20 minutes to prussik up to you. unfortunately, the rappel followed a fairly vertical descent and you happened to stop underneath the lip of a small roof. even more unfortunately, you have now succumbed to hanging harness syndrome since your partner could not reach you in time.
had you not been using an autoblock and your partner instead had you on a fireman's belay, she could have lowered you to the anchor immediately and initiated a rescue.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 2:57 AM
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colatownkid wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: erma..... but how are knots at the end of the rope going to keep someone from getting down to you? Better to be unconscious at the end of a rope rather than going splat 400' below you...... rgold does not mean "backup knots" in the sense that you have tied knots into the ends of the rope. he means "backups" in the sense that you are using a friction hitch above or below your rappel device to hold your weight should you be unable to do so. suppose you are the second person rappelling in a team of two. halfway down a 60m rappel you are rendered unconscious (rockfall, hypoglycemia, epilepsy, take your pick). luckily, you have an autoblock on your leg loop which holds your weight. you are now 30m above your partner. it takes your partner a solid 20 minutes to prussik up to you. unfortunately, the rappel followed a fairly vertical descent and you happened to stop underneath the lip of a small roof. even more unfortunately, you have now succumbed to hanging harness syndrome since your partner could not reach you in time. had you not been using an autoblock and your partner instead had you on a fireman's belay, she could have lowered you to the anchor immediately and initiated a rescue.
ohhhhh, lol. That makes much more sense now! I was looking at what he wrote going "wtf"
And in that case then yes, I agree with his autoblock sentaments.
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majid_sabet
Jun 2, 2009, 3:42 AM
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I may use some like these to get down but still, it is all depends on the rope size, type, biner dia, climber's weight on the bottom and how many biner or wrap to use.I think I got no problem getting myself down on the rope but not sure about others. if this is too complicated or scary then use prussic down climb method. Again this is my setup so do not bitc* that it does not work blah blah blah and start another LAB dog fight.
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rgold
Jun 2, 2009, 3:56 AM
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It's nice to have a translator like colatownkid. But I did say harness friction knot backups, thinking that this couldn't be confused with knots at the ends of the rope.
But listen, scenario-meisters, all this talk about how to reach the hanging rappeller is just about the prelude. Suppose you have arrived, either from above or below, having prussiked, cinched, or biner-twisted your way there. Now you are dangling, either above or below an unconscious rappeller who is being held in position by a locked harness friction knot.
What will you do to get him down, and how much longer will that take? All things considered, what is his likely hang time?
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patto
Jun 2, 2009, 4:08 AM
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How exactly to you attach all these carabiner wraps to a taught rope? Whatsmore how exactly do you control your descent?
If you do manage to attach a rappel device or carabiner raps to the rope it will either be locked in place OR more likely have you accelerating out of control with no way of stopping.
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desertwanderer81
Jun 2, 2009, 4:20 AM
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Who's the fool now?
You assumed that I would real all the words. What a silly silly boy.
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rgold
Jun 2, 2009, 4:26 AM
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Guilty (tee hee!) as (giggle) charged.
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majid_sabet
Jun 2, 2009, 4:28 AM
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patto wrote: How exactly to you attach all these carabiner wraps to a taught rope? Whatsmore how exactly do you control your descent? If you do manage to attach a rappel device or carabiner raps to the rope it will either be locked in place OR more likely have you accelerating out of control with no way of stopping.
you do not control it but you set it low descent or you force yourself to rap as I mentioned in page 2.
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USnavy
Jun 2, 2009, 5:59 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I may use some like these to get down but still, it is all depends on the rope size, type, biner dia, climber's weight on the bottom and how many biner or wrap to use.I think I got no problem getting myself down on the rope but not sure about others. if this is too complicated or scary then use prussic down climb method. Again this is my setup so do not bitc* that it does not work blah blah blah and start another LAB dog fight. [IMG]http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8254/pict0389z.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7024/pict0391.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3946/pict0395n.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/614/pict0398v.jpg[/IMG]
Majid why is it you always come up with ridiculously complicated and excessively dangerous solutions (or lack thereof), to the most simple tasks. I can see it now. You would be on some multi-pitch rap station with a GriGri, an ATC and a figure eight and you would do a full body rappell...
If you’re rapping a large ass rope like that in your pic a munter hitch is fine. Hell I know a variation of the munter hitch that is fine for 4 mm cordlet. I rapped a small climb using 4 mm cordlet with a high friction variation of the munter hitch and it didn’t involve some excessively complicated sub-prototype rap configuration using a billion biners and a spool of cordlet… The regular munter hitch and high friction munter hitch works for rapping any climbing rope you would ever find in the recreational climbing world and all you need is a locking biner. You should have one of those on your chalk bag…
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JAB
Jun 2, 2009, 10:10 AM
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rgold wrote: But listen, scenario-meisters, all this talk about how to reach the hanging rappeller is just about the prelude. Suppose you have arrived, either from above or below, having prussiked, cinched, or biner-twisted your way there. Now you are dangling, either above or below an unconscious rappeller who is being held in position by a locked harness friction knot. What will you do to get him down, and how much longer will that take? All things considered, what is his likely hang time?
Here's one idea. First, use a sling to tie a chest harness to the patient. Then extend the patient's ATC and clip yourself and the patient to it. Put a new friction hitch below you. Open or cut the patient's friction hitch. Rap down together with the patient.
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verticon
Jun 2, 2009, 11:18 AM
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scrapedape wrote: I suppose you could construct a haul system to get his corpse back up to the anchor, and proceed from there. Not sure if that's a better option. I guess it depends on how you are defining "better."
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