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jt512
Jan 22, 2010, 8:12 PM
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bustloose wrote: Do I, or do I not wish to continue this discussion with people who are experts at looking at only one side of an argument?
Expert at looking at only one side of an argument: anyone who disagrees with you.
Jay
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bustloose
Jan 22, 2010, 9:10 PM
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jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: Do I, or do I not wish to continue this discussion with people who are experts at looking at only one side of an argument? Expert at looking at only one side of an argument: anyone who disagrees with you. Jay
no. but you're world class at making assumptions and twisting arguments around. I fully expect people to disagree with me no this topic, i am however surprised by the number of people who don't think twice about what they put in their body.
I'm talking about the people who refuse to think, not the people who present rational thought out points of view.
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bustloose
Jan 22, 2010, 9:13 PM
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cracklover wrote: bustloose wrote: I stated before, and I'll mention it again, just do a little research, and maybe look at both sides of the story, then decide how you like. Sure, I'll bite. I'd love to read whatever literature you can point to that shows that humans after they're weaned get no nutrition from milk. GO
i did not say you get no nutrition.
physicians committee for responsible medicine:
http://www.pcrm.org/...h/veginfo/dairy.html
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jt512
Jan 22, 2010, 9:27 PM
Post #55 of 78
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bustloose wrote: jt512 wrote: bustloose wrote: Do I, or do I not wish to continue this discussion with people who are experts at looking at only one side of an argument? Expert at looking at only one side of an argument: anyone who disagrees with you. Jay no. but you're world class at making assumptions and twisting arguments around.
Making assumptions and twisting arguments around: Refuting your arguments with citations to controlled peer-reviewed dietary trials.
In reply to: I fully expect people to disagree with me no this topic, i am however surprised by the number of people who don't think twice about what they put in their body.
People who don't think twice about what the put in their body: Anyone who disagrees with your unfounded beliefs about milk.
In reply to: I'm talking about the people who refuse to think, not the people who present rational thought out points of view.
People who refuse to think: Anyone who disagrees with you, regardless of how much they have thought about it.
You seem to be so convinced that you're right, that you think that anyone who disagrees with you must not be thinking. Actually, I think it's just the opposite.
Jay
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jt512
Jan 22, 2010, 9:31 PM
Post #56 of 78
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bustloose wrote: cracklover wrote: bustloose wrote: I stated before, and I'll mention it again, just do a little research, and maybe look at both sides of the story, then decide how you like. Sure, I'll bite. I'd love to read whatever literature you can point to that shows that humans after they're weaned get no nutrition from milk. GO i did not say you get no nutrition. physicians committee for responsible medicine: http://www.pcrm.org/...h/veginfo/dairy.html
The PCRM is a group of vegan propagandists. The web page you linked to is not an objective review of the literature. It's completely one-sided.
Jay
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cracklover
Jan 22, 2010, 9:47 PM
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bustloose wrote: cracklover wrote: bustloose wrote: I stated before, and I'll mention it again, just do a little research, and maybe look at both sides of the story, then decide how you like. Sure, I'll bite. I'd love to read whatever literature you can point to that shows that humans after they're weaned get no nutrition from milk. GO i did not say you get no nutrition. physicians committee for responsible medicine: http://www.pcrm.org/...h/veginfo/dairy.html
You said: In reply to: there is no benefit to drinking milk as an adult.
And
In reply to: {milk} ceases to have any value after a certain developmental period, right around say when mothers tend to stop breast feeding
So does it have nutritive value or not? If so, then the nutritive value is the value you deny it has. And getting that value is the benefit you deny.
Thanks for providing the link.
GO
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bustloose
Jan 22, 2010, 9:47 PM
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he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate).
i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is.
and i'm done Jay, bye bye.
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jt512
Jan 22, 2010, 9:52 PM
Post #59 of 78
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bustloose wrote: he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate). i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is.
Everyone: The PCRM and Robert Cohen.
In reply to: and i'm done Jay.
Done: Lost the argument.
Jay
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cracklover
Jan 22, 2010, 10:36 PM
Post #60 of 78
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bustloose wrote: he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate). i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is. and i'm done Jay, bye bye.
You think I'm "for" milk? Like I said, I don't drink the stuff. As for the link you provided, I looked around. Interesting organization. Here's what they suggest for a balanced diet: http://www.pcrm.org/...vsk/food_groups.html
That would provide you with about 15g of protein a day. Enough to live, but nowhere near as much as I'd like for the amount of exercise I (or nearly anyone on this site - including you) do.
Not impressed by their recommendations.
GO
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jt512
Jan 22, 2010, 10:51 PM
Post #61 of 78
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cracklover wrote: bustloose wrote: he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate). i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is. and i'm done Jay, bye bye. You think I'm "for" milk? Like I said, I don't drink the stuff. As for the link you provided, I looked around. Interesting organization. Here's what they suggest for a balanced diet: http://www.pcrm.org/...vsk/food_groups.html That would provide you with about 15g of protein a day. Enough to live, but nowhere near as much as I'd like for the amount of exercise I (or nearly anyone on this site - including you) do.
Actually, I'd guesstimate that that diet would provide 50–80 g of protein per day for a sedentary indivdual, and more for an active individual.
In reply to: Not impressed by their recommendations. GO
The only problem I have with the PCRM's version of a vegan diet is that they are still hung up on the Dean Ornish low-fat diet model, essentially ignoring an overwhelming body of evidence showing health benefits for plant foods, like nuts, olive oil, etc., that are high in unsaturated fats.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 22, 2010, 10:52 PM)
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cracklover
Jan 24, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #62 of 78
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: bustloose wrote: he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate). i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is. and i'm done Jay, bye bye. You think I'm "for" milk? Like I said, I don't drink the stuff. As for the link you provided, I looked around. Interesting organization. Here's what they suggest for a balanced diet: http://www.pcrm.org/...vsk/food_groups.html That would provide you with about 15g of protein a day. Enough to live, but nowhere near as much as I'd like for the amount of exercise I (or nearly anyone on this site - including you) do. Actually, I'd guesstimate that that diet would provide 50–80 g of protein per day for a sedentary indivdual, and more for an active individual.
??? How do you figure that? 90% of the protein in this diet appears to come from legumes. As such, a daily serving of that quadrant of the diet might be 16 oz of soymilk. This would give you about 15g of protein. Or 8 oz tofu, which would give you 20g of protein.
Even if we assume another 10g from grains, you're looking at only 30g protein/day.
What are you seeing that gets you from my 30 at the high end to your 80g on the high end?
Are you simply assuming that no-one could reasonably stick to the number of calories suggested in their diet, and would therefore eat proportionately more of everything?
GO
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colatownkid
Jan 24, 2010, 6:12 PM
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bustloose wrote: like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate).
Not to be inflammatory, but doesn't that mean that your information and subsequent judgments formed are particularly susceptible to the availability heuristic?
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jt512
Jan 25, 2010, 1:00 AM
Post #64 of 78
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: Actually, I'd guesstimate that that diet would provide 50–80 g of protein per day for a sedentary individual, and more for an active individual. ??? How do you figure that? 90% of the protein in this diet appears to come from legumes. As such, a daily serving of that quadrant of the diet might be 16 oz of soymilk. This would give you about 15g of protein. Or 8 oz tofu, which would give you 20g of protein. Even if we assume another 10g from grains, you're looking at only 30g protein/day. What are you seeing that gets you from my 30 at the high end to your 80g on the high end?
My guesstimated protein range was based on two sources of information. The first is the established fact that, practically speaking, any calorie-adequate diet based on whole foods will also be protein adequate. The second is that some years ago I computed nutrient profiles for low-fat, whole-food vegan diets, similar to the PCRM diet, and found them to be protein adequate.
In reply to: Are you simply assuming that no-one could reasonably stick to the number of calories suggested in their diet, and would therefore eat proportionately more of everything?
There is no suggested number of calories in the PCRM diet. The recommendations for each food group are of the form "X or more serving a day." The presumption, which is essentially correct, is that an individual will eat enough servings to satisfy his energy requirements.
We can informally check whether a diet derived from the PCRM recommendations would be protein adequate (avoiding the tedium of computing the amount of protein in a realistic mix of foods from the diet) by computing what protein intake would be from a single food, were an individual to eat enough of that food to supply his entire energy needs—say 2500 kcal/day, about what an average adult male requires. Using data from the USDA nutrient database, we find that 2500 kcal of whole wheat bread contain 60 g of protein. Similarly, 2500 kcal of corn, tofu, or black beans supply 65, 293, or 168 g of protein, respectively. So, the protein in 2500 kcal of any of these foods—even those in the relatively low-protein whole grain group—exceeds the RDA for an adult male (56 g). Therefore a calorie-adequate diet from any combination of these foods would be protein adequate. Thus, in practice, it would be difficult not to meet the RDA for protein following the dietary recommendations of the PCRM.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 25, 2010, 3:34 AM)
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Tactix23
Jan 25, 2010, 1:26 AM
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Any sports diet or weight lifting diet will do. You can stick with a simple 15 calories and 1 to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight for your diet. For a 150 pound male, this will be a good maintenance diet.
For breakfast you can't go wrong with egg whites, whole eggs (in moderation), oats, steel cut oats or 5 grain oats with cinnamon+honey+ whey protein. Banana blueberries and apples and some orange juice if you like
Meals you will want to stick with high protein sources+ vegetables and good carbs. Chicken, lean grass fed beef, broccoli, green beans etc, salmon, tuna, sweet potatoes, brown rice, whole grain carbs, low fat milk (if you are concerned about gaining fat).
For snacks, eat things like natty peanut butter, almonds, walnuts.
Before climbing I would have some kind of whole grain carbs then maybe some whey protein 20 minutes before. Post climbing, whey protein with chocolate milk and a meal about an hour or so after that.
You'll want fast acting protein like milk and whey and the chocolate milk is a sugar to spike your insulin insuring the protein gets to the muscles even quicker. Did I mention drink milk? I have been raving about it for a long time and it just so happens there was an article in a mens fitness magazine saying it was one of the greatest things for muscle. You don't have to get big to be good at climbing, but you do want fast and slow acting protein to rebuild them
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Tactix23
Jan 25, 2010, 1:28 AM
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stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia
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Tactix23
Jan 25, 2010, 1:32 AM
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bustloose wrote: you should try getting off the milk...  you'll probably get 100 answers from 100 people about what to eat on a climbing day. i used to eat crap, and climb 5.13, now i eat very healthy meals, and climb 5.13, but feel a lot better doing it. Pepsi and powerbars is one way to fuel up, but it's far from ideal especially if you want to avoid spikes and crashes...
Please don't buy into that bullshit that spreads through the web. I had some idiot try and tell me milk was bad because it was too much of a base which is bad for the body. Meanwhile, milk is slightly acid (but pretty much neutral).
Saturated fat increases testosterone and has been built to seem so horrible when it really isn't. Not to mention a quart of 1% milk will only put you at about 32% of your day's daily saturated fat intake, while giving you a whopping 64 grams of slow digesting protein and 440 calories with a shit ton of calcium. Anyone who thinks milk is bad for you is quite wrong
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Tactix23
Jan 25, 2010, 1:39 AM
Post #68 of 78
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bustloose wrote: Do I, or do I not wish to continue this discussion with people who are experts at looking at only one side of an argument? no, I do not. I stated before, and I'll mention it again, just do a little research, and maybe look at both sides of the story, then decide how you like.
notmilk.com doesn't count as doing research. I'm sorry, but were you the one who said adults can't benefit from milk? You lose all credibility there.
There were plenty of body builders who drank gallons of milk a day and lived to be well over 80 and 90
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Tactix23
Jan 25, 2010, 1:43 AM
Post #69 of 78
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bustloose wrote: he asked for literature, i spent 45 seconds and found a page that should *at the very least* make people think, or do more research for themselves. like i said, i do not get my information from the internet, i get it from my peer group (which consists of people from all sides of the debate). i do like though that everyone who is against milk is whack job propaganda monger, yet anyone who is pro-milk, just is. and i'm done Jay, bye bye.
that website was fucking retarded. What's next? Are you going to show me a 9/11 propaganda video and tell me I'm refusing to THINK if I don't believe it was an inside job? Give me a break
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jt512
Jan 25, 2010, 2:30 AM
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Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia
And, by all means, just go with the rumors.
Jay
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johnwesely
Jan 25, 2010, 4:01 AM
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jt512 wrote: Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia And, by all means, just go with the rumors. Jay
Why don't you just think? You are being unbelievably close minded. It is all over the internet. You must be in the pockets of Big Soy. Open your eyes!
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jt512
Jan 25, 2010, 5:48 AM
Post #72 of 78
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johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia And, by all means, just go with the rumors. Jay You must be in the pockets of Big Soy.
Soy grande. Es verdad.
Jay
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angry
Jan 25, 2010, 12:58 PM
Post #73 of 78
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jt512 wrote: Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia And, by all means, just go with the rumors. Jay
I drink soy milk, probably 300 days a year. I have since I was 21, I'm 31 now.
I don't have noticeable man boobs, I'm even kinda hairy, but the dementia, oh god the dementia.
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johnwesely
Jan 25, 2010, 1:02 PM
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angry wrote: jt512 wrote: Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia And, by all means, just go with the rumors. Jay I drink soy milk, probably 300 days a year. I have since I was 21, I'm 31 now. I don't have noticeable man boobs, I'm even kinda hairy, but the dementia, oh god the dementia.
That is just anecdotal evidence. I drank soy milk once and then got sexual realignment surgery the next week. How can you deny the evidence?
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angry
Jan 25, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #75 of 78
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johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: jt512 wrote: Tactix23 wrote: stay away from soy at all costs. Especially if you're a man. I don't see it having any benefit over whey and it is rumored to cause estrogen levels to rise in men and risk dementia And, by all means, just go with the rumors. Jay I drink soy milk, probably 300 days a year. I have since I was 21, I'm 31 now. I don't have noticeable man boobs, I'm even kinda hairy, but the dementia, oh god the dementia. That is just anecdotal evidence. I drank soy milk once and then got sexual realignment surgery the next week. How can you deny the evidence?
Third time's the charm
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