|
|
|
|
slavetogravity
Jan 28, 2010, 5:24 AM
Post #1 of 151
(9731 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 1114
|
So the Apple Computers has just released their new I-Pad, and with it I see the future of rock climbing guide books.
Imagine an app that you could buy that would have all the route info for any particular area. It opens with an area overview image. You touch the particular crag you want info on, in the area overview map, and up pops a photo topo of the crag, complete with colour coded rout lines. You then click on the particular route and up pops all the beta you’d want for that particular route. Double that any number of countless features. Want to beta flash the route? Then play the corresponding video of someone climbing the route in question. Hell, you could include a first assentionist audio commentary. How crazy would that be! “So, yah Mark and I sent this back in 2005, I had just met Mark and after he fired the line we got to talking about how he and his wife had just gotten married. So that’s how we decided on calling the route Newlyweds.”
Of course the I-pad won’t work for all areas. Think muti-pitch. For that you’d have to have another app to down load individual route info to your I-Phone.
The best part is that this technology will allow smaller, lesser known areas that could never justify the publication of a proper guide book to get published.
Wait, what?
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Jan 28, 2010, 5:30 AM
Post #2 of 151
(9723 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
Somehow, I doubt it anytime soon.
For one, most of us don't carry our laptops to the crags and most of us don't own an I-phone.
Even with the internet today, it's hard to find information about climbing areas that are the the main stream crags. We're still a way off on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
slavetogravity
Jan 28, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #3 of 151
(9707 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 1114
|
guangzhou wrote: For one, most of us don't carry our laptops to the crags and most of us don't own an I-phone.
10 years ago no one in their right mind would bring a digital camera to the crag. Their resolution was crap and cost a fortune. 20 years ago you would have been seen as crazy to drag a cell phone to the crag, as you would have taken up about half of your pack, and you probably couldn't get cell service to save your life.
So it's 2010 and no one is dragging their lap tops to the crag. And why would they? Their heavy, expensive, and it you've got one like mine the battery is crap.
Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags.
|
|
|
|
|
helios
Jan 28, 2010, 5:56 AM
Post #4 of 151
(9697 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2005
Posts: 56
|
guangzhou wrote: Somehow, I doubt it anytime soon.
Does this May qualify as "anytime soon?"
If so, the Red River Gorge will have an iPhone App by then.
http://www.splitterchoss.com/...0-the-coolest-stuff/
hat tip to climbingnarc.com
|
|
|
|
|
asiaclimber
Jan 28, 2010, 6:30 AM
Post #5 of 151
(9664 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 214
|
All that needs to happen for this to work is, the publisher's giving the rights to digitize there books to amazon. I bring my Kindle with me on almost every trip i go on just to read before going to sleep, if i oculd get guide books on it i would probably love it. Especially with the 3G download capabilities, you could be road triping and just download the guide book in the car at the parking area.
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Jan 28, 2010, 7:12 AM
Post #6 of 151
(9644 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
asiaclimber wrote: All that needs to happen for this to work is, the publisher's giving the rights to digitize there books to amazon. I bring my Kindle with me on almost every trip i go on just to read before going to sleep, if i oculd get guide books on it i would probably love it. Especially with the 3G download capabilities, you could be road triping and just download the guide book in the car at the parking area.
My almost complete climber's guide to Okinawa will be Kindle Accessible on Amazon. A hard copy version will also exist. Keep an eye out for it.
I think my Climbers' guide to Indonesia will also be Kindle Accessible, but it's at least 18 months to two years before it complete. Again, it will also be available in hard copy.
|
|
|
|
|
i_h8_choss
Jan 28, 2010, 8:49 AM
Post #7 of 151
(9612 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 694
|
slavetogravity wrote: guangzhou wrote: For one, most of us don't carry our laptops to the crags and most of us don't own an I-phone. 10 years ago no one in their right mind would bring a digital camera to the crag. Their resolution was crap and cost a fortune. 20 years ago you would have been seen as crazy to drag a cell phone to the crag, as you would have taken up about half of your pack, and you probably couldn't get cell service to save your life. So it's 2010 and no one is dragging their lap tops to the crag. And why would they? Their heavy, expensive, and it you've got one like mine the battery is crap. Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags.
Yeah and people will immediately update thier blogs as soon as they get off the climb, still pumped, light up a ciggy, and tell the interweb all about thier sick send. Blogger fans will be standing by, waiting for the update.
Call me old-school.....but technology is pretty lame sometimes. It takes away the purity and art in certain things.
|
|
|
|
|
qwert
Jan 28, 2010, 1:11 PM
Post #8 of 151
(9572 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
Well some of this will certainly happen (and some already is happening) but i do see a few problems.
Your giantic app described at the beginning would either need a lot of storage space (more than you can realize with SSDs at a reasonable price) or require fast cellphone acces at the crag. Even here in europe the datarate sucks outside of bigger cities. As an example, check out http://www.dav-felsinfo.de/ajaxdav/. Its in german, but you get the idea. click yourself through the map, until you reach a crag. So far it is not replacing guidebooks, and videos are not possible (as far as i know), but there are possibiblities to include topos, multiple photos and stories for every little crag.
But he biggest problem is battery life and robustness. My guidebook can be used for days and weeks without a recharge. my phone not so much.
Guidebooks also can take a lot of abuse. I put it in my backpack witout any special packaging. I once had a rock falling on it. I have a little dent in the page the rock hit, but thats it. Dont think the ipad will take rockfall that lightly. Also when walking home in the rain: when the guidebook gets a tad wet it wont affect it. Electrical devices are a bit more sensible to moisture.
And last but not least: Standarts vs. walled gardens.
A book can be read by everyone with a set of eyes (or even just one eye). And for topos you dont even need to speak the language.
An iphone app can only be used with an iphone (or ipad), and a kindle book/ app can only be used with a kindle, and a blackberry app only with a blackberry, and symbian only on symbian and so on.
Shure, you could obtain multi platform capability with Java, but that excludes all apple stuff.
And specifically on apple: How do you know that your guidebook/ programm will be allowed on the isomething? does the area in question contain routes with inapropriate names? Well if so, expect your app to be pulled. And i bet you will get a major shitstorm from locals if you go and censor route names just to suck SJobs dick.
qwert
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Jan 28, 2010, 2:28 PM
Post #9 of 151
(9527 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
The main problem is that the Ipad is a useless piece of junk, and I can't imagine anybody, outside of die hard Apple fans, buying one.
|
|
|
|
|
dolphja
Jan 28, 2010, 2:33 PM
Post #10 of 151
(9523 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 18, 2001
Posts: 298
|
qwert wrote: Well some of this will certainly happen (and some already is happening) but i do see a few problems. Your giantic app described at the beginning would either need a lot of storage space (more than you can realize with SSDs at a reasonable price) or require fast cellphone acces at the crag. Even here in europe the datarate sucks outside of bigger cities. As an example, check out http://www.dav-felsinfo.de/ajaxdav/. Its in german, but you get the idea. click yourself through the map, until you reach a crag. So far it is not replacing guidebooks, and videos are not possible (as far as i know), but there are possibiblities to include topos, multiple photos and stories for every little crag. But he biggest problem is battery life and robustness. My guidebook can be used for days and weeks without a recharge. my phone not so much. Guidebooks also can take a lot of abuse. I put it in my backpack witout any special packaging. I once had a rock falling on it. I have a little dent in the page the rock hit, but thats it. Dont think the ipad will take rockfall that lightly. Also when walking home in the rain: when the guidebook gets a tad wet it wont affect it. Electrical devices are a bit more sensible to moisture. And last but not least: Standarts vs. walled gardens. A book can be read by everyone with a set of eyes (or even just one eye). And for topos you dont even need to speak the language. An iphone app can only be used with an iphone (or ipad), and a kindle book/ app can only be used with a kindle, and a blackberry app only with a blackberry, and symbian only on symbian and so on. Shure, you could obtain multi platform capability with Java, but that excludes all apple stuff. And specifically on apple: How do you know that your guidebook/ programm will be allowed on the isomething? does the area in question contain routes with inapropriate names? Well if so, expect your app to be pulled. And i bet you will get a major shitstorm from locals if you go and censor route names just to suck SJobs dick. qwert
+1 yea, i see several problems with this as well. i don't see a laptop or ipad or whatever computerized guide device being used extensively in areas due to their delicate nature. a lot of the guys i know, including me, don't take computer to climbing areas. we even go out of our way to take the batteries out of our cell phones cause, we just don't want to be found when we're out and about. 
almost defeating the purpose of getting lost 
|
|
|
|
|
jcrew
Jan 28, 2010, 3:08 PM
Post #11 of 151
(9487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2006
Posts: 673
|
we could just paint the name and rating at the base of the route, no more guidebook.
|
|
|
|
|
xaniel2000
Jan 28, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #12 of 151
(9483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2007
Posts: 99
|
slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags.
I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months.
|
|
|
|
|
xaniel2000
Jan 28, 2010, 3:12 PM
Post #13 of 151
(9480 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2007
Posts: 99
|
jcrew wrote: we could just paint the name and rating at the base of the route, no more guidebook.
We could also chop down the trees and install escalators to the cliff lines...
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Jan 28, 2010, 3:26 PM
Post #14 of 151
(9460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
xaniel2000 wrote: slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags. I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months.
What purpose does an e reader serve? The books are not any cheaper and are riddled with DRM.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jan 28, 2010, 3:27 PM
Post #15 of 151
(9459 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
xaniel2000 wrote: jcrew wrote: we could just paint the name and rating at the base of the route, no more guidebook. We could also chop down the trees and install escalators to the cliff lines...
better to have roads and parking spaces next to each climb. belaying and lowering through and into the sunroof is the new style.
in all seriousness, I'm sure the technology will develop to the point where guidebooks will be electronic. I'm not sure when it will be standard, but I bet it will. there may be obstacles now, but that's all they are. once the technology becomes standardized then things will take off. It's just a matter of time.
personally, I think it's a good thing to have electronic guidebooks. It will save paper for one. Also, for folks like me who care less about the adventure and more about other benefits of climbing, it will open up better opportunities for folks to see the routes they are getting on (i.e. - photos of the start, for instance). While I love getting away from the world, I like knowing where I am when I do get away (so getting lost kinda lowers the enjoyment factor). While there are good photos and topos in many current hardcopy guidebooks, photos on an electronic device is a much smaller obstacle than in print.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jan 28, 2010, 3:29 PM
Post #16 of 151
(9458 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
johnwesely wrote: xaniel2000 wrote: slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags. I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months. What purpose does an e reader serve? The books are not any cheaper and are riddled with DRM.
they'll serve a good purpose for me soon. I'm moving to Chile, writing in English, and don't speak a lick of Spanish: I'll be able to bring a bunch of English-language books with me (because it is damn near impossible to find English-language books in Chile) without the added weight of carrying books. I'm a bit sad to not be reading real books, but 8oz and a few inches here and there is better than several pounds and significantly more mass.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Jan 28, 2010, 3:33 PM
Post #17 of 151
(9452 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: johnwesely wrote: xaniel2000 wrote: slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags. I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months. What purpose does an e reader serve? The books are not any cheaper and are riddled with DRM. they'll serve a good purpose for me soon. I'm moving to Chile, writing in English, and don't speak a lick of Spanish: I'll be able to bring a bunch of English-language books with me (because it is damn near impossible to find English-language books in Chile) without the added weight of carrying books. I'm a bit sad to not be reading real books, but 8oz and a few inches here and there is better than several pounds and significantly more mass.
Fair, but for the average user, I don't really see the point.
|
|
|
|
|
xaniel2000
Jan 28, 2010, 3:40 PM
Post #18 of 151
(9448 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2007
Posts: 99
|
johnwesely wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: johnwesely wrote: xaniel2000 wrote: slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags. I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months. What purpose does an e reader serve? The books are not any cheaper and are riddled with DRM. they'll serve a good purpose for me soon. I'm moving to Chile, writing in English, and don't speak a lick of Spanish: I'll be able to bring a bunch of English-language books with me (because it is damn near impossible to find English-language books in Chile) without the added weight of carrying books. I'm a bit sad to not be reading real books, but 8oz and a few inches here and there is better than several pounds and significantly more mass. Fair, but for the average user, I don't really see the point.
Same purpose that an iPod serves for music. I can carry all my music with me, digitally, without worrying about CDs and the clutter that goes along with them. I'm looking at buying an e-reader next so I can put my library into digital format, thus eliminating countless pounds of paperbacks (don't worry, I'll donate or recycle them!) In my mind, the less personal possessions I have to worry about, the better off I am. Plus, the new e-books that I buy won't waste paper and ink.
I'm sure there's something to be said for 'old-fashioned' books and whatnot, but I think e-reader tech is an improvement and is only going to make my life easier.
|
|
|
|
|
qwert
Jan 28, 2010, 4:32 PM
Post #19 of 151
(9394 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: personally, I think it's a good thing to have electronic guidebooks. It will save paper for one.
qwert
|
|
|
|
|
jcrew
Jan 28, 2010, 4:38 PM
Post #20 of 151
(9387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2006
Posts: 673
|
xaniel2000 wrote: jcrew wrote: we could just paint the name and rating at the base of the route, no more guidebook. We could also chop down the trees and install escalators to the cliff lines...
not a bad idea....i wish there was an tram up to the palisades glacier. we can chop down the trees and make guidbooks out of them.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jan 28, 2010, 4:54 PM
Post #21 of 151
(9368 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
qwert wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: personally, I think it's a good thing to have electronic guidebooks. It will save paper for one. You can cut down a lot of trees until you even come close to the carbon dioxide emmisions and toxic waste produced during the lifetime of an electronic gadget. qwert
I can't get into a debate on this because I'm not a scientist in the field. I can see why it might be so with guidebooks (because there are so few that are used - each climber would have how many guidebooks on his e-reader? probably not so many), but what about one person carrying 2000 books in total on his e-reader?
25 years ago companies were still storing data with paper. Now they store things electronically. I'm just having a hard time believing that electronic data storage isn't better than paper storage. I can save (and do have) thousands of documents that I can save over and over again after writing, re-writing, sending, and recieving without using a single sheet of paper. I go weeks at a time without printing anything for work, and often my documents would be several pages longs. Honestly, I think I've not printed millions of pieces of paper in the past five years by doing things electronically.
I honestly don't know the stats, but I've used two computers in five years at work and can't see how that's worse than all the paper I could have printed otherwise (not including mistakes!).
The technology might not be there now, but it's going to get better.
edit: meant to say "isn't" in the second paragraph.
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Jan 28, 2010, 6:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Jan 28, 2010, 5:27 PM
Post #22 of 151
(9337 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
xaniel2000 wrote: johnwesely wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: johnwesely wrote: xaniel2000 wrote: slavetogravity wrote: Now enter the i-pad, and all the other inevitable copy cats. In a few short years I'll bet you dollars to donuts you'll see these devices arriving at the crags. I agree with you, and I also think this is a good development. As a harbinger, I've heard that Wolverine Publishing is coming out with a RRG guidebook app for iPhone, can't wait to get my hands on it!! I have mixed feelings towards the iPad, but will inevitably buy an e-reader of some type in the next 6-18 months. What purpose does an e reader serve? The books are not any cheaper and are riddled with DRM. they'll serve a good purpose for me soon. I'm moving to Chile, writing in English, and don't speak a lick of Spanish: I'll be able to bring a bunch of English-language books with me (because it is damn near impossible to find English-language books in Chile) without the added weight of carrying books. I'm a bit sad to not be reading real books, but 8oz and a few inches here and there is better than several pounds and significantly more mass. Fair, but for the average user, I don't really see the point. Same purpose that an iPod serves for music. I can carry all my music with me, digitally, without worrying about CDs and the clutter that goes along with them. I'm looking at buying an e-reader next so I can put my library into digital format, thus eliminating countless pounds of paperbacks (don't worry, I'll donate or recycle them!) In my mind, the less personal possessions I have to worry about, the better off I am. Plus, the new e-books that I buy won't waste paper and ink. I'm sure there's something to be said for 'old-fashioned' books and whatnot, but I think e-reader tech is an improvement and is only going to make my life easier.
Maybe I am just a Luddite.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Jan 28, 2010, 5:45 PM
Post #24 of 151
(9310 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
The only information I care for is the information that is in guide books currently. Blogs, videos, etc. are what I'm trying to get away from when I go climbing.
That said, digitization of guidebooks is inevitable. Supertopo, for example, already gives you the option of buying a hardcopy or pdf. (Of course, every person I know prints the pdf's out for use at the crag.)
When digital media (e.g. phones, pads, notebooks) match a paper copy in terms of durability, lifetime, and cost, I'll certainly be interested. In the meanwhile, I'm sticking with what has worked well for me thus far.
|
|
|
|
|
byran
Jan 28, 2010, 6:19 PM
Post #25 of 151
(9265 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2006
Posts: 266
|
slavetogravity wrote: 10 years ago no one in their right mind would bring a digital camera to the crag. Their resolution was crap and cost a fortune. 20 years ago you would have been seen as crazy to drag a cell phone to the crag, as you would have taken up about half of your pack, and you probably couldn't get cell service to save your life.
To counter the logic in that argument, 60 years ago no one would have thought that strips of microfilm would replace printed books...and, yeah, I guess that didn't happen.
Going digital would be the biggest mistake the print industry could make. Sure it'll net a few companies like Amazon and Apple a bunch of money in the short term, but once something becomes digitized, it becomes free. Just look at what's happening to the music and movie industries. At least bands can still make money selling concert ticket, and use their studio albums as a way of attracting fans. Movies like Avatar will still make a killing at the box office and the internet isn't quite at the point where most people can stream DVD (and especially not Hi Def) quality video. But how the fuck is an author supposed to make a dollar when his book is available for free on every bittorrent site? The only thing books have going for them is that they're more portable than a laptop and people don't like staring at a monitor for long periods of time. If this e reader thing catches on, the old business model is over.
If things actually do go in that direction the only way I see the industry staying afloat is by making the documents free, more convenient than the pirate sites, and supplemented with advertisements (like magazines, an ad every 5 pages or so) to make money. The difference between that and something like Hulu.com is that the money Family Guy makes off Hulu is just supplementing the money they make from on-air advertisements and DVD box saies. Digital books won't have those other mediums to lean on if no one is buying print books anymore.
As for guidebooks, I prefer a xerox copy of the topo folded up in my pocket on anything multipitch. For cragging I could see an e reader being a nice space saver once they come down to a fraction of the price they're going for now. Since I've been living out of my car off and on, my numerous guidebooks do actually take up a substantial amount of my very limited space. But with the route databases on sites like Mountain Project and this one getting increasingly larger, guidebooks as we know them might be obsolete by the time any of this happens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
