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pir8penguin
Dec 18, 2002, 5:34 AM
Post #26 of 32
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i'd much rather have a biner flip over on my gear loop (which mind you i've never noticed) than for it to flip over after i've clipped it. i can rotate the biner on my harness and still make a good clip...or like many do, cary more than you need, and grab another one if you're at a sketch clip.
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dirko
Dec 18, 2002, 5:47 AM
Post #27 of 32
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A factor I find which can greatly influence this most critically important question is the brand of QD used. My Omega 4.0's flip over so often that I can practically count on them to do so. My Metolius and Hotwires do not have this problem so much. Of course when you use rubber bands everything will stay tight anyways.
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slcliffdiver
Dec 18, 2002, 4:33 PM
Post #28 of 32
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Maiorlive I've heard of a person decking aparently due to the bolt head opening up the biner for just this reason and of belayers seeing this happen while there partner climbed.
Honestly I think it's fairly rare for this to happen but for me the point is why increase your risk at all when there is no good reason to have it the other way around and it's easier to clip with it the correct way to boot.
Edit: -in special circumstances with people that know what their doing- (okay it sound cheesy language isn't my bag), biners secured on both ends doesn't bother me (if they're on the wrong ends I'm just going to assume the person is a gumby) but it's good if people start out learning the standard, safest method first then figure out as they go on when they might find it useful and reasonable to do it another way.
Edit:
"Sometimes I wonder if some of the more experienced people on this site ever learned anything without a full cert guide looking over their shoulder. "
I can't speak for others, but for me; first 1/10000 of something happening wrong if you do the same thing consistently is bad odds if you realize you'll be climbing thousands of times/pitchs if you're lucky. Second being around dead climbers and on rescues with others that end up loosing limbs or permantly disabled tends to make you more sober.
I take risks and make stupid mistakes from time to time but I try and go out of my way not to die or be maimed because I don't know the safest way to do something or am ignorant of risks involved.
Peace
David
[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-12-18 09:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-12-18 11:11 ]
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mountainmonkey
Dec 18, 2002, 5:11 PM
Post #29 of 32
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Registered: Jul 11, 2002
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"I only recommend fixing the bottom biner."
Quote:Subject: Biner Orientation for Sport Draws
From: Chris Harmston [chrish@bdel.com]
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:45:53 -0600
I have to dissagree with the recommendations of having the gates face the same way or the opposite way, every situation is different and may require different techniques. I recommend setting up draws with a selection of different length of runners with the biners oriented in the same direction and the opposite direction. I only recommend fixing the bottom biner. Here are my reasons in order of importance (based on likelyhood of failure in my opinion):
Note, I think through these issues EVERY TIME I clip a piece of pro on every route. Learn to do this quickly. Assess every piece of pro every time. I do not believe that there is one technique that works in every
situation.
1) Bottom biner must not be loaded over an edge or buldge. Use different length of draw if needed. If this is not possible then use a locking biner. Look for rotational effects. The buldge or edge may not be
located directly below the bolt but could be off to the side. Make sure you think about how the draw will move when you fall from different places on the route above you. Often times a route will force you to climb both to the right and to the left of the piece below you. Remember this when clipping your pro. Try to assess where you might be most likely to fall from and set up your pro accordingly.
2) Top biner must not be loaded over an edge or buldge. On bolted sport routes this does occur fairly often. Use a locking biner for these situations, two biners, add a backup tie off, or better yet if you think you might fall on this bolt-BAIL. Then slap the first ascentionist repeatedly until they fix their %@#$up. Often times you can simply rotate the biner with the gate opening downwards to reduce the likelyhood of the buldge opening the gate. In general I try to make sure that the gate faces away from the bolt head. It can interfere with the biner gate in some rare situations. Top biners are much less likely to unclip if they are not fixed to the quickdraw, therefore I do not fix the top biner to the draw.
3) Bottom biner must not be back clipped. Unclip and reclip the rope until it is clipped correctly.
4) Bottom biner gate must face away from the direction you are climbing towards.
5) Orientation of either biner is independent of where you are clipping from. They are dependent on where you are going and the variables above. Be able to clip with either hand with the biners facing either direction. Setting up your draws and clipping them in one direction just because you have poor technique is a bad excuse that could have harsh consequences given the right circumstances. Learn the pinch clip and the index clip and the palm clip and and and. Be proficient at any clip! There are times when this is not feasible. When climbing at your limit you may need to force a certain type of direction to make the clip easier. Be aware that this may not be the best situation when falling from above.
6) Carry 1 or two draws with locking biners on both ends for those situations where you can't avoid biner interaction with buldges or edges or when faced with a hard crux or runout where gear failure would be disastrous.
These are my personal opinions from my own experiences in climbing not from testing that I have done.
Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
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slcliffdiver
Dec 18, 2002, 7:01 PM
Post #30 of 32
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Registered: Mar 18, 2002
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I agree! more than 99% of the time. Read my first post actualy I think there is a greater chance of unclipping if they're fixed even without the bolt head but nothing concrete came to mind in my first post so I didn't want to say anything. Maybe I should have said "special" instead of "certain" circumstances. Actually glad you brought it up I'll edit so people don't missunderstand.
I don't want to go into it because it's a trick that should be used sparingly and selectively and I honestly believe if I post it here more people will crater than will be worth the amount of people helped by it. Some techniques are called advanced techniques for a reason and in my opinion should be learned from someone who knows you. But if I see someone good esp on a severly overhanging route and either the draw flipped and clipped or both ends fixed I'm more likely to guess they did it for a specific reason not because they didn't know better. Maybe I'd been better of not bringing it up in the first place. I'm curious does anyone that's been leading for more than a few years not know what I'm talking about?
Peace
David
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kevlar
Dec 18, 2002, 7:23 PM
Post #31 of 32
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Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 272
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all the above
but if confused an still anal....well then dont use em at all....
bentgate,snug biner, is designed for clipping in to the rope attached to your harness
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braaaaaaaadley
Dec 18, 2002, 8:02 PM
Post #32 of 32
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Registered: Dec 9, 2002
Posts: 576
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Loose end to bolt and tight end to rope. More important than what end goes where is clipping technique:http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/bd/beta_carabiners_workhorse.html
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