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p8ntballsk8r
Jul 31, 2010, 3:00 PM
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I've climbed with her once before but It was the first time I took her out and we stuck with 5.9's and stuff that I was confident I wouldn't fall on.
I'm probably 60 pounds heavier than she is, and I really want to work on one of my projects that has a 5.12a finish. I know I'll probably fall, but this move is just before the anchors so do I need her to tie into something or is she going to fly into the first bolt when I fall?
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marc801
Jul 31, 2010, 3:51 PM
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p8ntballsk8r wrote: I've climbed with her once before but It was the first time I took her out and we stuck with 5.9's and stuff that I was confident I wouldn't fall on. I'm probably 60 pounds heavier than she is, and I really want to work on one of my projects that has a 5.12a finish. I know I'll probably fall, but this move is just before the anchors so do I need her to tie into something or is she going to fly into the first bolt when I fall?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhah7dRayLU
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Lbrombach
Jul 31, 2010, 4:58 PM
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better that she fly up a little... its usually taught for the lead belayer to give a jump or "dynamic" belay once the climber is above the possibility of hitting the deck. It's softer on the climber and more importantly, the equipment. Just make sure she isn't standing way back watching you or when you fall she'll swing into the rock instead of just up to the first draw.
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ShockSLL
Jul 31, 2010, 5:10 PM
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I weigh over 100 pounds more than my wife which is also my climbing partner. Typically if i'm going to be taking whippers, she will anchor in below but somewhat loose so it will be a more dynamic belay but without the possibility of us meeting in the air.
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climbingaggie03
Jul 31, 2010, 7:05 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: better that she fly up a little... its usually taught for the lead belayer to give a jump or "dynamic" belay once the climber is above the possibility of hitting the deck. It's softer on the climber and more importantly, the equipment. Just make sure she isn't standing way back watching you or when you fall she'll swing into the rock instead of just up to the first draw.
Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it.
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styndall
Jul 31, 2010, 8:51 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: better that she fly up a little... its usually taught for the lead belayer to give a jump or "dynamic" belay once the climber is above the possibility of hitting the deck. It's softer on the climber and more importantly, the equipment. Just make sure she isn't standing way back watching you or when you fall she'll swing into the rock instead of just up to the first draw. Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it.
You want a soft catch to avoid getting whipped into the wall harder then necessary at the end of your fall.
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shimanilami
Jul 31, 2010, 9:52 PM
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T2. You're improving.
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johnwesely
Jul 31, 2010, 10:08 PM
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shimanilami wrote: T2. You're improving.
Still T0 in my opinion. He blew his load way too early.
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ilikepargo
Aug 1, 2010, 6:32 AM
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This.
But pay attention to what is directly below your anticipated fall. IF there is a ledge, a ledge, or anything substantial that you could hit on the way down jutting out from the wall, you might want her to run back and shorten your fall rather than lengthening it by taking a flier. If she's too light for that, have her anchor in.
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Lbrombach
Aug 1, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Soft catches are good for the the gear and people. The equipment I was referring in particular is the bolts. Every fall puts a load on them. The less time is spent decelerating the shock load increases dramatically. Yes, I know the ropes stretch, but these anchors are of various ages in rock of various quality.
Of course the priority is to prevent injury in general. Whether from decking, whipping into the face or a ledge, etc. I'm just sayin that no matter how tight you can hold the rope and stay put, a bolt failure can allow your climber to deck anyway. Bolt failure sucks..for you or for the next guy. As I mentioned in my first reply, the dynamic belay or "soft catch" is used once the climber has gained a few bolts and is above the possibility of decking from the belayer taking few feet of a ride.
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ajkclay
Aug 1, 2010, 2:11 PM
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I saw a funny instance of a light belayer being tied down due to a much heavier climber on the sharp end...
Anchor point was a tree not far away from the wall.
When the climber dropped it was really funny watching the belayer get suspended in mid air halfway between the wall and the first bolt, just floating in space with nothing to stabilise against.
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j_ung
Aug 1, 2010, 2:56 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: better that she fly up a little... its usually taught for the lead belayer to give a jump or "dynamic" belay once the climber is above the possibility of hitting the deck. It's softer on the climber and more importantly, the equipment. Just make sure she isn't standing way back watching you or when you fall she'll swing into the rock instead of just up to the first draw. Where did this idea of a "soft catch" come from? especially for sport climbing? I've never heard of anyone talking about it outside of RC.com. Most of the places I know of we worry about trying to keep the climber off the deck. I dont think an extra foot or two of slack is going to make much of a difference to the climber on a sport route, and if you're worried about being gentle on your sport climbing equipment, maybe it's time to replace it.
We haven't rerally defined a "soft catch" in the context of this thread, but assuming we're all talking about the same thing...
A soft catch keeps the climber from swinging hard into the wall. On natural gear, it's easier on the top piece. And, speaking as someone who's less than a year out from back surgery, a soft catch is especially important. I won't let somebody who's substantially heavier than I am, anchored or inept belay me. If I'm multipitching, then obviously the anchored part is non-negotiable and the inept thing is that much more important.
Most of the time there's more to belaying than keeping the climber off the ground, just like there's more to it than providing a soft catch. If you've NEVER heard of this outside RC.com, instead of consigning it to the bullshit bin, you might want to look into it further.
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smallclimber
Aug 1, 2010, 10:16 PM
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There are pros and cons, but as a light belayer who climbs with a heavier partner I would say get her an anchor. If she is experienced and understands she will get pulled up and is not phased by that that its probably OK but if she's less experienced and not prepared for how far she could go up then maybe best not to chance it. It doesn't need to be tight, but just so she won't hit anything (and hence risk letting go of the rope) in the case of a fall.
My husband is about 90 lb heavier than I am and I prefer to be anchored if possible when he leads. I know I can hold the fall, but if I'm anchored I can just focus on locking off in the case of a fall. It might not be quite as soft - but with our weight difference a non-anchored falled might be too soft!
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bill413
Aug 2, 2010, 1:56 AM
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ajkclay wrote: I saw a funny instance of a light belayer being tied down due to a much heavier climber on the sharp end... Anchor point was a tree not far away from the wall. When the climber dropped it was really funny watching the belayer get suspended in mid air halfway between the wall and the first bolt, just floating in space with nothing to stabilise against.
Hence the importance of evaluating the situation, and where the anchor is.
ABC
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ajkclay
Aug 2, 2010, 3:09 AM
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bill413 wrote: ajkclay wrote: I saw a funny instance of a light belayer being tied down due to a much heavier climber on the sharp end... Anchor point was a tree not far away from the wall. When the climber dropped it was really funny watching the belayer get suspended in mid air halfway between the wall and the first bolt, just floating in space with nothing to stabilise against. Hence the importance of evaluating the situation, and where the anchor is. ABC
Zackly!
They did seem a little red-faced, and shared a laugh - (how could they not?) but cragging with bolts and an immovable anchor is the place to learn that stuff huh?
:)
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ilikepargo
Aug 2, 2010, 4:21 AM
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Agreeing with you. Just that there are exceptions. A 6" ledge, an embedded boulder, or even just a wall that bends outward too much can all make a softer catch to be more hazardous.
Evaluating the situation = Good.
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DangerGir1
Aug 5, 2010, 1:22 AM
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Falling objects is another thing to worry about when anchoring the belayer. I know that it is rare in most sport crags but it happens. And when it does you want room to doge.
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stickclip
Aug 5, 2010, 6:21 PM
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One reason when you should set up an anchor is if there is a roof above the first bolt, the belayer could hit their head on the roof. In that situation it would be a great idea to have your belayer also wear a helmet. Petzl put this scenario in their catalog to warn people about it.
Another scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope" well maybe a gumby using a gri who puts too much faith in it, maybe the belayers hand got smacked in to the wall, or maybe the belayer panicked and put both arms forward because they were flying in to the wall because they were standing too far away from the wall and not directly under the first bolt.
(This post was edited by stickclip on Aug 6, 2010, 4:47 PM)
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redlude97
Aug 5, 2010, 6:30 PM
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stickclip wrote: One reason when you should set up an anchor is if there is a roof above the first bolt, the belayer could hit their head on the roof. In that situation it would be a great idea to have your belayer also wear a helmet. Petzl put this scenario in their catalog to warn people about it. A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope" well maybe a gumby using a gri who puts too much faith in it, maybe the belayers hand got smacked in to the wall, or maybe the belayer panicked and put both arms forward because they were flying in to the wall because they were standing too far away from the wall and not directly under the first bolt.
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jt512
Aug 5, 2010, 6:59 PM
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stickclip wrote: A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope..."
Actually, in this scenario I would be saying "Who cares if the belayer let's go of the rope?" because if the cam gets held open (by the bolt), then it doesn't matter whether the belayer is holding onto the rope or not; either way, he won't be able to stop the rope from running through the grigri.
Jay
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stickclip
Aug 5, 2010, 7:11 PM
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jt512 wrote: stickclip wrote: A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope..." Actually, in this scenario I would be saying "Who cares if the belayer let's go of the rope?" because if the cam gets held open (by the bolt), then it doesn't matter whether the belayer is holding onto the rope or not; either way, he won't be able to stop the rope from running through the grigri. Jay
Really, I always wondered how many pounds you can hold with the gri cam being held down, do you know any specifics?
What if you were to throw your arm behind your back like you often see people do? There would be some added friction from your waist. The main reason I think people do that though is so their hand doesn't get smacked in to the wall and they end up letting go.
Technically the cam is being held down by the rope side biner on the quickdraw. I say this only to help redlude97 visualize the scenario, not to be a smartass.
(This post was edited by stickclip on Aug 5, 2010, 7:14 PM)
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jt512
Aug 5, 2010, 7:27 PM
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stickclip wrote: jt512 wrote: stickclip wrote: A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope..." Actually, in this scenario I would be saying "Who cares if the belayer let's go of the rope?" because if the cam gets held open (by the bolt), then it doesn't matter whether the belayer is holding onto the rope or not; either way, he won't be able to stop the rope from running through the grigri. Jay Really, I always wondered how many pounds you can hold with the gri cam being held down, do you know any specifics?
Although, I don't recall the specifics, I've seen the number for the braking force for a backwards-loaded grigri, and it was far less than the braking force for any acceptable belay device. I would guess that an average belayer could hold a toprope fall, but probably not even a moderate lead fall, never mind one which slammed him into the first bolt.
In reply to: What if you were to throw your arm behind your back like you often see people do?
I don't know. Dislocate your shoulder?
In reply to: The main reason I think people do that though is so their hand doesn't get smacked in to the wall and they end up letting go.
The main reason that people (ie, n00bs) do that is bad training.
Jay
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redlude97
Aug 5, 2010, 8:33 PM
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stickclip wrote: jt512 wrote: stickclip wrote: A scenario that can get the climber in to trouble is when their belayer flies up to the first bolt, they are using a gri, and their hand isn't on the brake side of the rope. The cam can get held down therefore increasing the chance the climber will take a ground fall. You might be saying "who lets go of the brake side of the rope..." Actually, in this scenario I would be saying "Who cares if the belayer let's go of the rope?" because if the cam gets held open (by the bolt), then it doesn't matter whether the belayer is holding onto the rope or not; either way, he won't be able to stop the rope from running through the grigri. Jay Really, I always wondered how many pounds you can hold with the gri cam being held down, do you know any specifics? What if you were to throw your arm behind your back like you often see people do? There would be some added friction from your waist. The main reason I think people do that though is so their hand doesn't get smacked in to the wall and they end up letting go. Technically the cam is being held down by the rope side biner on the quickdraw. I say this only to help redlude97 visualize the scenario, not to be a smartass.
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Tootie
Aug 5, 2010, 9:50 PM
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hah!!
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jakedatc
Aug 5, 2010, 10:00 PM
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DangerGir1 wrote: Falling objects is another thing to worry about when anchoring the belayer. I know that it is rare in most sport crags but it happens. And when it does you want room to doge.
not necessarily rare.. people still can drop gear, pull off holds, things falling from above anchors etc. i am almost always outweighed by 40+ pounds and do not anchor. i've been pulled off the ground plenty of times without incident.
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