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notapplicable


Aug 14, 2010, 4:02 PM
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Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed
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I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 4:14 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

Disagree. posts have always been the "property" of the person who posts it. You can add and remove anything you want whenever you want. RC.com owns the site, not the content. It is in their best interests to run their site in such a way that valuable contributors do not leave and take their information with them.

we've already seen folks like John Gill, John Long, Ammon, ClimbNow1( dunno his real name but damn good photos) leave. I have to believe some of the reasoning behind it is the major signal to noise discrepancy. and now harassment without admin. defense.

the unprofessional move was Daniel allowing JT and Curt to continue to poke, jab and push Aric out of here.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Aug 14, 2010, 4:23 PM)


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 4:27 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

Disagree. posts have always been the "property" of the person who posts it. You can add and remove anything you want whenever you want. RC.com owns the site, not the content. It is in their best interests to run their site in such a way that valuable contributors do not leave and take their information with them...

I'm not so sure about that. Have you read the Terms of Service here? Here is the final Term:

RC.com Terms of Service wrote:

(H) By publishing or submitting any content including, articles, stories, postings and photographs to any part of Rockclimbing.com you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site, for any purpose, in its original or edited form, at any time in the future. Content will not be sold without permission of the original author or owner.

The bolding is mine. I hadn't actually given it much thought, previously--but it does appear to me (from this) that the site claims a future right to a user's posts. In practice, I think users have had a right to control their content, but this current practice seems to conflict with the T.O.S., unless of course I'm reading it wrong.

Curt


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 4:31 PM
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Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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In reply to:
you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site

It reads to me that they can put it up on the front page or whatever. And they can delete it as they see fit.. not that you can't change it.

Maybe you were still a mod then but isn't the only reason PTPP's stuff is still intact is that he was banned before he could edit it


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Aug 14, 2010, 4:32 PM)


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 4:35 PM
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Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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In reply to:
User Requested Post Removal Policy
As an open public forum user, you are responsible for your own communications and are responsible for the consequences of posting those communications. We will usually not honor requests for post removals or editing. You are welcome to edit or remove your own posts.

there ya go. fair game.


notapplicable


Aug 14, 2010, 4:36 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

Disagree. posts have always been the "property" of the person who posts it. You can add and remove anything you want whenever you want. RC.com owns the site, not the content. It is in their best interests to run their site in such a way that valuable contributors do not leave and take their information with them.

we've already seen folks like John Gill, John Long, Ammon, ClimbNow1( dunno his real name but damn good photos) leave. I have to believe some of the reasoning behind it is the major signal to noise discrepancy. and now harassment without admin. defense.

the unprofessional move was Daniel allowing JT and Curt to continue to poke, jab and push Aric out of here.

If a persons posts are their "property", then you would be able to delete your content from within the body of my post, but you cannot. Allowing the archive to be bastardized by arbitrarily allowing people to delete unquoted content is bullshit and a flaw in the system.

This model was chosen for the site, so I expect the owners/operators to stand behind it.


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 4:40 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site

It reads to me that they can put it up on the front page or whatever. And they can delete it as they see fit.. not that you can't change it.

Maybe you were still a mod then but isn't the only reason PTPP's stuff is still intact is that he was banned before he could edit it

My point was primarily related to the part I bolded. That part seems to say that once you post something here, RC.com has a future right to use it any way they like--except for commercial gain, which is specifically not allowed without the user's permission.

As far as PTPP goes, I have no idea if he had any desire to delete any of his content when he left.

Curt


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 4:42 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

Disagree. posts have always been the "property" of the person who posts it. You can add and remove anything you want whenever you want. RC.com owns the site, not the content. It is in their best interests to run their site in such a way that valuable contributors do not leave and take their information with them.

we've already seen folks like John Gill, John Long, Ammon, ClimbNow1( dunno his real name but damn good photos) leave. I have to believe some of the reasoning behind it is the major signal to noise discrepancy. and now harassment without admin. defense.

the unprofessional move was Daniel allowing JT and Curt to continue to poke, jab and push Aric out of here.

If a persons posts are their "property", then you would be able to delete your content from within the body of my post, but you cannot. Allowing the archive to be bastardized by arbitrarily allowing people to delete unquoted content is bullshit and a flaw in the system.

This model was chosen for the site, so I expect the owners/operators to stand behind it.

shrug.. not going to get any sympathy from me. If you think it is valuable then you best quote it or else it could be gone at any time.

Making posts permanent would seem to be very difficult to control since it wouldn't allow any editing (if delete isnt an option then editing to ____ still would be). I would also expect the amount of quality posts to plummet even further than the already dismal level. People aren't being paid to contribute to this site hence their material is not owned by the site.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 4:44 PM
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Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site

It reads to me that they can put it up on the front page or whatever. And they can delete it as they see fit.. not that you can't change it.

Maybe you were still a mod then but isn't the only reason PTPP's stuff is still intact is that he was banned before he could edit it

My point was primarily related to the part I bolded. That part seems to say that once you post something here, RC.com has a future right to use it any way they like--except for commercial gain, which is specifically not allowed without the user's permission.

As far as PTPP goes, I have no idea if he had any desire to delete any of his content when he left.

Curt

See the next part that i posted.. another section allows you to delete as much as you want. they just won't do it for you.. much to Dingus's dismay


notapplicable


Aug 14, 2010, 4:52 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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"jakedatc wrote:

shrug.. not going to get any sympathy from me. If you think it is valuable then you best quote it or else it could be gone at any time.

Making posts permanent would seem to be very difficult to control since it wouldn't allow any editing (if delete isnt an option then editing to ____ still would be). I would also expect the amount of quality posts to plummet even further than the already dismal level. People aren't being paid to contribute to this site hence their material is not owned by the site.

Getting rid of the option to delete would at least be a good start.

Banning those who actually follow through on their threats to edit all of their posts in to oblivion would be then next step.


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 4:55 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site

It reads to me that they can put it up on the front page or whatever. And they can delete it as they see fit.. not that you can't change it.

Maybe you were still a mod then but isn't the only reason PTPP's stuff is still intact is that he was banned before he could edit it

My point was primarily related to the part I bolded. That part seems to say that once you post something here, RC.com has a future right to use it any way they like--except for commercial gain, which is specifically not allowed without the user's permission.

As far as PTPP goes, I have no idea if he had any desire to delete any of his content when he left.

Curt

See the next part that i posted.. another section allows you to delete as much as you want. they just won't do it for you.. much to Dingus's dismay

I never said they won't allow you to delete your posts. My point is that the content on servers is archived all the time and even after you delete a post, there is a reasonably good chance they still have it somewhere--particularly if the post existed for a while. And, they reserve the right to use anything you have previously posted in the future. I have never seen them do this, only that the T.O.S. apparently allows for it.

Curt


Gmburns2000


Aug 14, 2010, 5:01 PM
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Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
In reply to:
you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site

It reads to me that they can put it up on the front page or whatever. And they can delete it as they see fit.. not that you can't change it.

Maybe you were still a mod then but isn't the only reason PTPP's stuff is still intact is that he was banned before he could edit it

My point was primarily related to the part I bolded. That part seems to say that once you post something here, RC.com has a future right to use it any way they like--except for commercial gain, which is specifically not allowed without the user's permission.

As far as PTPP goes, I have no idea if he had any desire to delete any of his content when he left.

Curt

See the next part that i posted.. another section allows you to delete as much as you want. they just won't do it for you.. much to Dingus's dismay

I never said they won't allow you to delete your posts. My point is that the content on servers is archived all the time and even after you delete a post, there is a reasonably good chance they still have it somewhere--particularly if the post existed for a while. And, they reserve the right to use anything you have previously posted in the future. I have never seen them do this, only that the T.O.S. apparently allows for it.

Curt

This is the impression I have, too, that the content is still there even though Aric "deleted" it.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 5:04 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
"jakedatc wrote:

shrug.. not going to get any sympathy from me. If you think it is valuable then you best quote it or else it could be gone at any time.

Making posts permanent would seem to be very difficult to control since it wouldn't allow any editing (if delete isnt an option then editing to ____ still would be). I would also expect the amount of quality posts to plummet even further than the already dismal level. People aren't being paid to contribute to this site hence their material is not owned by the site.

Getting rid of the option to delete would at least be a good start.

Banning those who actually follow through on their threats to edit all of their posts in to oblivion would be then next step.

How about instead having management improve conditions so that users who have contributed a lot do not want to leave in such a way. Oh wait.. that required work and effort. Things this staff has avoided despite the urging for many years ie route database, photos, and a killfile feature

nah.. take the lazy way out like the rest of the country.. take a pill to solve the symptom not the disease.


notapplicable


Aug 14, 2010, 6:05 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
"jakedatc wrote:

shrug.. not going to get any sympathy from me. If you think it is valuable then you best quote it or else it could be gone at any time.

Making posts permanent would seem to be very difficult to control since it wouldn't allow any editing (if delete isnt an option then editing to ____ still would be). I would also expect the amount of quality posts to plummet even further than the already dismal level. People aren't being paid to contribute to this site hence their material is not owned by the site.

Getting rid of the option to delete would at least be a good start.

Banning those who actually follow through on their threats to edit all of their posts in to oblivion would be then next step.

How about instead having management improve conditions so that users who have contributed a lot do not want to leave in such a way. Oh wait.. that required work and effort. Things this staff has avoided despite the urging for many years ie route database, photos, and a killfile feature

nah.. take the lazy way out like the rest of the country.. take a pill to solve the symptom not the disease.

While I agree with you on that, it is somewhat of a separate issue and does nothing to address the times when a person does not do the ethical thing and honor their implicit agreement. The agreement that their posts are to be part of a dialogue and that other posters not only can, but necessarily do rely on their content to give context and meaning to their own.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 6:36 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
"jakedatc wrote:

shrug.. not going to get any sympathy from me. If you think it is valuable then you best quote it or else it could be gone at any time.

Making posts permanent would seem to be very difficult to control since it wouldn't allow any editing (if delete isnt an option then editing to ____ still would be). I would also expect the amount of quality posts to plummet even further than the already dismal level. People aren't being paid to contribute to this site hence their material is not owned by the site.

Getting rid of the option to delete would at least be a good start.

Banning those who actually follow through on their threats to edit all of their posts in to oblivion would be then next step.

How about instead having management improve conditions so that users who have contributed a lot do not want to leave in such a way. Oh wait.. that required work and effort. Things this staff has avoided despite the urging for many years ie route database, photos, and a killfile feature

nah.. take the lazy way out like the rest of the country.. take a pill to solve the symptom not the disease.

While I agree with you on that, it is somewhat of a separate issue and does nothing to address the times when a person does not do the ethical thing and honor their implicit agreement. The agreement that their posts are to be part of a dialogue and that other posters not only can, but necessarily do rely on their content to give context and meaning to their own.

why should someone who was treated the way Aric was owe this site or any of the users on it anything?

again.. if you don't treat people like crap then they won't have any reason to delete their content.


ncrockclimber


Aug 14, 2010, 7:12 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
why should someone who was treated the way Aric was owe this site or any of the users on it anything?

again.. if you don't treat people like crap then they won't have any reason to delete their content.

Jake,

I have seen a few comments similar to yours. Although not exactly on point to the main topic here, I feel the need to jump in and comment.

IMHO, Aric is not a victim. During his drawn out departure from this site he made a number of post trying to portray himself as such, but I feel that reality is somewhat different. I saw him dish out just as much "abuse" as he got. He seemed to enjoy it when it was going his way. Toward the end of his association with this site he seemed more than willing to get personal and incredibly insulting to users while in his role as a moderator.

Although I agree that he owes the site and its users nothing, his scorched earth departure exhibits a huge lack of class and maturity. However, i am not sure what the site management could do to stop it short of removing the delete and edit functions, which would do little to help the overall content of this site.


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 7:25 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
why should someone who was treated the way Aric was owe this site or any of the users on it anything?

again.. if you don't treat people like crap then they won't have any reason to delete their content.

Jake,

I have seen a few comments similar to yours. Although not exactly on point to the main topic here, I feel the need to jump in and comment.

IMHO, Aric is not a victim. During his drawn out departure from this site he made a number of post trying to portray himself as such, but I feel that reality is somewhat different. I saw him dish out just as much "abuse" as he got. He seemed to enjoy it when it was going his way. Toward the end of his association with this site he seemed more than willing to get personal and incredibly insulting to users while in his role as a moderator.

Although I agree that he owes the site and its users nothing, his scorched earth departure exhibits a huge lack of class and maturity. However, i am not sure what the site management could do to stop it short of removing the delete and edit functions, which would do little to help the overall content of this site.

No, I'm afraid there were no big bad bullies who forced or pushed Aric out the door. The fact is that Aric has decided, completely of his own initiative, to leave the site--and to take all his marbles with him. Perhaps Jake should go back and re-read the "Lab?" thread in this very Forum. ddt made it very clear in that thread that Aric misused his authority and had been abusive of users here. He similarly found that neither Jay nor myself had violated any of the site's Terms of Service.

As our current president says, "you're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts."

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on Aug 14, 2010, 8:02 PM)


caughtinside


Aug 14, 2010, 7:28 PM
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wow, I must have missed this whole thing. Did this go down in the lab?

In any case, I think it's important that users be able to delete any content they provide. There isn't a collective discourse, there's mouse clicks and ad revenues.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 7:36 PM
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either way.. the info is gone and in the context of this thread that is what matters and is the way that it should be.


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 7:41 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
either way.. the info is gone and in the context of this thread that is what matters and is the way that it should be.

Again, the "info" is probably not permanently gone, it simply can't be viewed by users at the present time. Whether that is right or wrong is more the current issue.

Curt


caughtinside


Aug 14, 2010, 7:46 PM
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where was that subantz wimp? The threads in here from the last week provide ample opportunities for a BANZing or at least a meatpit, and he blew it.


jakedatc


Aug 14, 2010, 8:06 PM
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Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
either way.. the info is gone and in the context of this thread that is what matters and is the way that it should be.

Again, the "info" is probably not permanently gone, it simply can't be viewed by users at the present time. Whether that is right or wrong is more the current issue.

Curt

Pretty sure you are wrong. A mod would have to confirm it though.


curt


Aug 14, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #23 of 157 (5125 views)
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Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18230

Re: [jakedatc] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
either way.. the info is gone and in the context of this thread that is what matters and is the way that it should be.

Again, the "info" is probably not permanently gone, it simply can't be viewed by users at the present time. Whether that is right or wrong is more the current issue.

Curt

Pretty sure you are wrong. A mod would have to confirm it though.

Oh, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the content of the servers here is backed up (saved) periodically. Any site pretty much has to do that in case their server really crashes hard--and they need to do a restore from one of the recent back ups.

Curt


notapplicable


Aug 14, 2010, 11:04 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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So, those of you who think posters should be able to delete anything they want. Aric is currently deleting his, largely unquoted, posts from the "Alien Failures" thread.

Not only are there possible safety implications but you may also recall that many of us put up our own cash to purchase the second round of pull tested aliens. Those results are now gone. Do you stand in defense of that? No collective discourse, eh?

Edit: My mistake. I forgot that the second round of testing had it's own thread so those posts have been quoted for preservation, along with the first several pages from the alien failures thread.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Aug 14, 2010, 11:39 PM)


Partner j_ung


Aug 15, 2010, 5:58 AM
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18687

Re: [curt] Wholesale deletion of content should never be allowed [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
I haven't been active much lately so I'm just now discovering the blowup that resulted in Adatesman "leaving" the site and the bullshit that has followed with him deleting large amount of content from the lab and possibly other forums. THAT SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED TO HAPPEN. Especially since he announced his intentions in advance.

Thread continuity is key to any value this site may have and is, at the very least, a simple courtesy owed to the other contributors. Everyone who posts to this site knows they are contributing to an archived dialogue. They also have every reason to expect that the site owners/managers will maintain thread and archive integrity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When a person decides to post to this site, they are making a contribution to the archive of collective discourse. Simple as that. To withdraw ones contributions is to mar the contributions of the others here.

To do so is childish and disrespectful, to allow it to happen on your site is the epitome of unprofessionalism.

Disagree. posts have always been the "property" of the person who posts it. You can add and remove anything you want whenever you want. RC.com owns the site, not the content. It is in their best interests to run their site in such a way that valuable contributors do not leave and take their information with them...

I'm not so sure about that. Have you read the Terms of Service here? Here is the final Term:

RC.com Terms of Service wrote:

(H) By publishing or submitting any content including, articles, stories, postings and photographs to any part of Rockclimbing.com you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site, for any purpose, in its original or edited form, at any time in the future. Content will not be sold without permission of the original author or owner.

The bolding is mine. I hadn't actually given it much thought, previously--but it does appear to me (from this) that the site claims a future right to a user's posts. In practice, I think users have had a right to control their content, but this current practice seems to conflict with the T.O.S., unless of course I'm reading it wrong.

Curt

You're misinterpreting it. That clause in the TOS is to protect the site's ability to provide a quote function, move threads and display content in areas of the site the poster may not have originally intended, for example photos on the front page.

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