Life will be easier if you do not use the lead rope in the anchor. Use a Cordelette or simular.

I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series.

I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again.

So Sharon and I tried that "switching ends" between pitches of a 5-pitch climb. Didn't seem to take much time. (We both use personal anchor "leashes" anyway, so we were attached to the anchor at all times.) Maybe it took less time than re-stacking the rope would - (surely less time than also rebuilding a rope anchor).

Is switching rope tie-in ends as a normal part of our climbing a Real Bad Idea -- or is there just some better way to approach it?

I've been away from climbing for lots and lots of years, just getting back into leading, so I'm reading newer books, re-asking some basic questions that probably seem obvious to other people.

Looking at some old forum threads I found some people who normally make rope anchors, but say that if they know in advance that one person is going to lead all the pitches, they prefer to use a cordelette rather than switch ends. But then don't they still have to take the time to re-stack the rope?

? Maybe I've been taking too seriously the supposed need for re-stacking before re-leading -- and I should learn to just flip the rope over -- and accept than in some percentage of cases there might be a tangle to deal with?

Or is there other approach to this I'm missing?

Ken

I've heard that it's usually smart to re-stack the rope when the same person is going to lead the next pitch. And if I've built an anchor using the climbing rope (instead of a cordelette), it could be a big hassle to re-build that in order get free rope to lead again another pitch in series.

I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again.

It is a good idea to restack, however, if the leader-now-belayer keeps the rope tidy while bringing up the second, it's simply a matter of flipping the stack over, and viola.

I often build my anchors from the rope, sometimes even when leading in blocks. Here's what I do:

Let's say the rope anchor is a 2-loop figure 8, AKA bunny ears. I lead, I place my pieces, I tie my knot and I clip in. I'm anchored. I then belay my second (keeping the rope tidily folded over my lap).

When my second arrives, he grabs two of his own biners, clips them to the same pieces UNDER my anchor, and then ties his own bunny ears with his end of the rope. When I lead off, I dismantle my bunny ears, and I'm out of there.

When leading in blocks you can just scoop up the neatly stacked rope and flip it over. This technique assumes a stance sufficient to stack the rope in a tight bundle. At hanging belays flake the rope over your anchor points as the second climbs and then flip it in accordance with the same basic principle. Reflaking is slow and untying is both inefficient and potentially unsafe.

...I read in a book that a way to avoid both "re-" tasks is for both climbers to untie from the climbing rope, exchange with the other's rope end, and tie in again.

Ken

... drape the line through a sling with increasing lengths of "loop" with each pass. If you do this right, there will be no need to flip anything over, and there will be no opportunity for CF's to form. This takes practice, but it works.

There is nothing wrong with untying and switching ends. It is a useful tool in fast efficient climbing.

If you find tying a knot difficult then I would start questioning the rest of your anchor and gear. It certainly isn't slower if you do it properly. I regularly climb with 3s and I move damn fast up a cliff. Avoiding CFs is key.

The number one rule in fast climbing with multiple ropes is don't fuck with the rope stacks. If that means swapping ends the you do it.

Edit to add: I climb on doubles exclusively.

I'd certainly call that a reason not to untie and re-tie.

eeewwwwww ... I've been doing this but still also flipping. Going to try it without flipping next time. Thanks!

But you know, I'm actually surpised to see that the last three posts all are from people who have swapped ends. I've just never done it, never heard it recommended, and never seen anyone do it.

I'm not real comfortable with this advice to a beginner.

In most cases people are either building their anchor with a whateverolette or they are swapping leads so it never comes in to play. If you use the rope in the anchor on a regular basis though, you will eventually find yourself swapping ends. At some point your partner is not going to want to or be able to lead the next pitch and "rebuilding" a 3-4 point gear anchor with the other end of the rope is slow and a recipe for clusterfuckage.

If someone is uncomfortable with that eventuality it's easy to avoid, just use a dedicated anchor rig. As I'm sure you do.

Beginners need to learn how to deal with these issues. They need to learn how to stack the rope and swap leads without swapping ends.

I am arguing that statements such as untying is bad are flawed.

They aren't flawed if we're talking beginning and intermediate climbers, neither of whom should be untying for any reason over the course of a climb.

Sure say untying is not recommended for beginners but don't condemn it as a practice that should never be done. Such comments I disagree with and will post my objections.

I have no reservations at all saying it should never be done by beginning and intermediate climbers. Any justification or rationale you could come up with for why they should is simply a statement of an activity such climbers shouldn't be engaged in.

Wow, so many great ideas, with good points pro + con for different approaches.

First I'm printing all this for Sharon to read so we can decide what to do for our climbing together.

Whatever she + I decide, I think with other partners I need to be ready to lead without switching ends of the rope. There's just too many other important assumptions to talk about with a new partner, I don't want to count on having time for a discussion about the pros+cons of switching ends.

I'm seeing now that one key part of not switching ends is to include slings in clever ways into my rope anchors, so that the remaining rope components are quicker to rebuild when necessary - (glad to see some good ideas for doing that).

Then the other partner and I need to agree on how we'll manage the rope stack. If we agree on frequent re-stacking, the suggestion of having the partner doing that task while I do most of the other fiddling for getting ready for the next lead makes sense.

If we want to avoid re-stacking, then I'll just have to learn to get better at managing the rope while belaying . . .
I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly).

And get good at deciding when it's OK to lead again without re-stacking (seems clear that lots of people succeed in doing this a high percentage of the time) and when it's better to take the time to re-stack.

This has been so helpful -- Thanks a lot.

Ken

I sort of feel that we should stop responding to kenr's posts.

Wow, so many great ideas, with good points pro + con for different approaches.

First I'm printing all this for Sharon to read so we can decide what to do for our climbing together.

Whatever she + I decide, I think with other partners I need to be ready to lead without switching ends of the rope. There's just too many other important assumptions to talk about with a new partner, I don't want to count on having time for a discussion about the pros+cons of switching ends.

I'm seeing now that one key part of not switching ends is to include slings in clever ways into my rope anchors, so that the remaining rope components are quicker to rebuild when necessary - (glad to see some good ideas for doing that).

Then the other partner and I need to agree on how we'll manage the rope stack. If we agree on frequent re-stacking, the suggestion of having the partner doing that task while I do most of the other fiddling for getting ready for the next lead makes sense.

If we want to avoid re-stacking, then I'll just have to learn to get better at managing the rope while belaying . . .
I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly).

And get good at deciding when it's OK to lead again without re-stacking (seems clear that lots of people succeed in doing this a high percentage of the time) and when it's better to take the time to re-stack.

This has been so helpful -- Thanks a lot.

Ken

I like the idea of starting to lay the rope in short loops, then successively longer + longer -- seems like something I should learn for hanging anchors anyway (even if Sharon and I decide to switch ends mostly).

Maybe my experience has to do with the fact that I always climb with doubles and almost never swing leads?

I typically use the rope to attach to the anchor but it quite often consists of two equalized pieces cloved to one rope with a locker and two more equalized and cloved to the other rope. when the second comes up they connect with a locker to each of the equalized points just like I did (making sure they go under my ropes with theirs).

Then, as I mentioned above, they pass me the sling with all my gear and I tell them what to do with the ropes (either flip or re-flake).

BTW, I'm not saying this is better or safer, just sharing what I do.

i also agree on some folks here. you really are not getting much out of what alot of people are giving to you- which is good advice. you would do well to re-read this thread several times until you understand what is actually being said here.

I have no reservations at all saying it should never be done by beginning and intermediate climbers. Any justification or rationale you could come up with for why they should is simply a statement of an activity such climbers shouldn't be engaged in.

I don't know man. He may not be taking away what any one of us in particular would like but I remember being where kenr is now and having a lot of fun playing with all kinds of different rigs. I've settled on what works for me and learned a lot in the process.

Certainly you cannot learn without making mistakes, which can be quite the dangerous proposition, but you cannot become a proficient climber without learning a few things on your own either. Catch-22?