Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

Has good intentions.

I have a better idea, create a petition to have the sand professionally removed from your vagina. Stop acting like such a bitch. Why the hell do you care if he bolts a sport route, its not like your ever going to climb it.

you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper.

think about it before you sign the petition.

You sure have invested a lot of posts for someone who supposedly thinks it's a non-issue.

I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.

....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it.

...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways.

... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut



Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links):

the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.

The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.


Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut

Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

This could not get anymore annoying.

Maybe we need another thread about the situation?

I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.

This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.

This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.


The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town, if Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.

Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.

No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.

There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?

I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?

That happened last year . . .

1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked

What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock?

And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?

I think this petition is going to get shrugged off. it splits the community by asking david lama not to rap-bolt the line he wants to free climb. I see that particular issue as insignificant compared to the damage they did and the hubris they showed to not clean up their mess and to not take responsibility.

rap-bolting has nothing to do with ethics. littering and lying does.

"You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it." what was that about good intentions? in my opinion he is a pussy who doesn't have the balls for alpine climbing. this attitude along with his affiliation with redbull prove to me that he is a wanna be moto X badass and has no place in traditional or alpine climbing.

This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

just go out and climb in good style......then you´ll be way better than him.

and you´ll be so caught up in yer climbing, you won´t even think about all this.

Well, what's the next stop?Maybe the next year they'll make the same mess on Trango tower!
What if they were bolting a line on El Cap( even if it was a route that couldn't take gear placements)?Maybe that's closer to you guys who say it's ok.You woldn't have a problem with that, would you?
Alpine peaks are a whole different playground and they should be treated accordingly. It's no different than taking your big smokey, smelly enduro bike in a reservation or national park.Just because it's a fun place to ride and you look sh!t cool on camera to renew your sponsorship contract with red piss doesn't make it ok.

So I assume you have an idea for something that won't get shrugged off.

You might want to re-check your el Cap and Trango Tower history.

Besides, arguing about climbing ethics and style makes me feel like a self-righteous prick. I control what I have to -- my own style and ethics, which matter far more to me than anybody else's.

I guess you missed my point.

I'm saying that there has to be a set of rules by which we play this game.

As it is, gear has come a long way and made great challenges(be them old or new) more accessible.But rap bolting an alpine route means removing the challenge itself and bringing the mountain down to your level.IMHO that's not acceptable and as part of the climbing community it bothers me.

Who knows what will happen in 50 years and what gear will look like.

Bolts are permanent and the damage once done will forever be done.

And after all, not all rock is meant to be climbed.

You should read Murder of the Impossible(if you haven't done so already).
Also, look at the Everest circus and what's happening there.I don't want rock climbing to become the same thing;

if I can help, even if it's only signing a petition(which probably won't solve anything) I think it's better than doing nothing at all.

Bolts belong on sport crags, not on mountains.

I agree that the freedom of individual climbing expression is of the highest value. I agree that Lama is free to do whatever he wants as an individual.

As a sponsored athlete, however, he is an agent of the free market, which is subject to the interests of others. Lama is funded by La Sportiva, I fund La Sportiva (with a good chunk of my change), and I'd rather my money didn't go to sport bolting Cerro Torre. As someone with a small stake in Lama's funding, to say nothing is to condone the activity, which is to compromise my own expression.

I dig the wu wei of principled neutrality, but it walks a fine line with apathy.

I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community. Climbing cant survive in the real world without ethics and style, because otherwise the bureaucrats will shut down areas and impose strict restrictions on climbers and im sure we all know that the restrictions basically make it impossible to climb without filling out forms and paying fees and such. a lack of style and ethics will bring an end to the "dirt-bag."

there also seems to be a fair amount of "what ever you do it wont make a difference," which is complete bogus. spamming an inbox is better than doing nothing, even if the companies dont respond at least they know something is up.

i understand the notion that telling others how to climb is bad, and i agree. for the most part. but this is a professional climbing who is supposed to be representing the climbing community as a whole, and right now he is representing us with an "i dont give a fuck" attitude, which does not represent the community as a whole

this is bigger than just one route. this is about what is acceptable on the rock. Do we want all of rock climbing to turn into everest? guides wall hauling a group of old rich people up a thousand foot sport climb? No! sport climbing has its place, and that is on relatively small crags where physical difficulty is pushed to the max for a hundred feet or so. when one goes alpine climbing it is specifically to move away from the safety of following a line of bolts up a face. its about the adventure, the whole experience, not just the physical movement. and if the climbing community doesnt realize this i think our future will be short lived.

as soon as the bureaucrats think there is a problem they WILL step in as they have in the past at certain areas. a huge draw of climbing is the rejection of forms and fees. its about leaving the safety net of civilization and society behind and pushing yourself to the limit mentally and physically. i sure hope that the majority of climbers isnt being represented by the posts in this thread. i am deeply saddened by the disregard shown here, and i seriously hope you all come to your senses and do what is best for the climbing community as a whole, and i dont mean for this situation exclusively.

I am seriously disappointed by the lack of response by this online climbing community.

I was number 999!

Rap bolting should be outlawed in the back country!

If you feel otherwise, you should stay out of the back country.

WWJBD? (what would john bachar do?)

He certainly wouldn't call for laws to regulate climbing.

You probably knew the guy, in which case I have no right arguing with you.

If you didn't, than I would say you are wrong.

Seems to me he would have
a) punched lama in the face, chopped his route, and done the route ground up.

or, more likely

b) would have snatched the route out from under lama via a ground up ascent in the first place.

I would love to see some hard man do either of the above!

It pains me when climbers, who thrive in the outdoors, want to industrialize it.

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!

the petition doesn't either?

OUTLAW RAP BOLTING IN THE BACK COUNTRY!!!

Okay, wait. What do you mean by "outlawed?" Are you speaking metaphorically? Or are you actually saying legislatures should pass laws to govern climbing and police agencies should enforce them? Cause I have to tell you, if it's the latter, you might be a moron.

As for the argument of not telling people how to climb, we do that all the time with our own local ethics: no bolts in Scotland, bolts on previous gear routes at Rumney, no bolts in IC, no retro-bolting routes that others would find dangerous. However we've decided on whatever rules we've established is irrelevant; they're rules and we're supposed to abide by them.

I don't follow a local ethic. I follow my own, which happens to be in line with what you could call a local ethic. When traveling, however, I make sure my actions are equal to or better than whatever that ethic might be.

+1

Well said.

New Developements!

http://www.david-lama.com/...pi1%5Bnewsuid%5D=220

Seems like David Lama has decided not to rap bolt the headwall!
More to be found here:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/...torre-good-news.html

qwert

Wow. All that hot air actually made a difference? Good on David for reconsidering.

There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

There's nothing to suggest it didn't either.

There is nothing to suggest that this petition had anything to do with David's decision.

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!

Your right, the real heroes are the ones like you who sat on their asses and did nothing. Congrats!

You seem to be rather passionate about shit.

Does it really matter?

Are you going to climb it or have you ever climbed it?

have i ever? no. will i ever? im gona try. does is it matter? yes it does.