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mhr2000
Feb 3, 2003, 2:00 AM
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This site is great, although sometimes the ego's can be a bit much around here. Seems the newbies like us are always getting told the same things at irrelevant times. A recent question was simple, which end of a draw goes to the rope. While many responded with the just the answers to the question others stretched the topic making assumptions and telling them the typical newbie things.
What are you newbies tired of hearing? I'll start off with mine.
Take a class. Sick of that one.
Don't go out on your own right a way. Something all of us were planning on doing and aren't smart enough to know.
Climbing is a dangerous sport. Wow had no idea.
Another person inquired why this guy bought gear he doesn't know how to use. Wow! Let's see, I've only been climbing once and I placed my order about 2 weeks ago for a rope/bag/draws sport package, slings, atc & belay biner, some lockers, chalk bag and a harness. Now all I need is the shoes. Figure if I'm gonna climb I'm not gonna be a gear bum and always have to rely on finding a partner that has everything.
And for the record this post isn't meant to be mean, it's just in good fun. It's just silly how often a simple question gets twisted so that a newbie sounds like a clueless moron who is out to kill himself.
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onelung
Feb 3, 2003, 2:08 AM
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I keep trying as well but this damn gear keeps saving my ass! My wife wont ever get rich off that insurance policy.
Bill
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stevematthys
Feb 3, 2003, 2:14 AM
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one thing i am sick of hearing is use the search button, just answer the question and move on, dont get all pissed and tell the person to search for it, besides there is probably nothing better to talk about.
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texplorer
Feb 3, 2003, 2:22 AM
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Yes, we were all beginners once. I actually don't encourage people to take "classes" cause I think you'll learn more by going with a friend, mentor, or even just reading about it yourself. I admit I ridicule people sometimes but its all in fun. The simple fact is after you have been climbing for awhile you hear the same questions over and over again. I try to be nice about it but sometimes you just can't help yourself. In my experience there are those who ask, learn, and move on and then there are those who ask and ask and ask and then quit or give up because of fear, or just not wanting to do what it takes to master the sport.I hope your questions are answered and you have as much fun climbing as I do. Just remember the best way to become a better climber is to get out all the time and do it.
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texplorer
Feb 3, 2003, 2:23 AM
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Oh, and move away from indiana as soon as possible
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mhr2000
Feb 3, 2003, 2:25 AM
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10/4 on moving away from Indiana! Some day I hope to make it a reality.
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madriver
Feb 3, 2003, 2:25 AM
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Right On...Matt!
You'll find that in a lot of climbers attitudes towards newbies. It generally occurs here and not in the real world. Most people I have met at the gym (a foul word to many "REAL" climbers) or outdoor climbing are very helpful. Many people here are incredibly helpful and knowledgeable. You will learn who they are quickly. Cull out the flamers and attitudes and hang in there.
Climb it when you can...
MR
P.S - I enjoy a good flame war against the "Attitudes" !! or longitudes if required
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mauriceb
Feb 3, 2003, 2:29 AM
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My favorite is "find an experienced leader and follow them .... "
While it is good advice, solid trad leaders aren't always around. And those that are, want to climb stuff that is fun for them.
I've been lucky so far to find cool people to let me tag along, but I'll be honest. When betaflash belayed me up a .10 something chimney at JTree, I didn't look at one single placement. One goal - get to the top with as much skin as possible left on my knees and elbows.
On other climbs, Sail Away(5.6) for instace, I felt comfortable enough to take a second and check out how the gear was placed. Granted he only placed two pieces, but I looked at those two.
maurice
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kevlar
Feb 3, 2003, 4:14 AM
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yes some seem to have all the answers...
so if you are out there....please tell me why if i cut the rope twice... it is still to short?
edited cause i madea boo boo
[ This Message was edited by: kevlar on 2003-02-02 20:15 ]
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jds100
Feb 3, 2003, 5:04 AM
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I confess to suggesting that folks try the Search function, sometimes, before starting a thread on the site, but that's in large part to see what great posts were written by some RC.com members who are no longer on the site so much. And, as Matt (mhr) could tell you, I've written with a tone that sounded rude (unintentional) and maybe preachey (very unintentional). I apologize to anyone who's been put off by any of my posts like that.
I learned the most from the How to Rock Climb series of books, and other books I found on clearance through the Chessler catalog. In the midwest, I could find only a few climbers as a newbie, and I will say that I did have a good experience with an introductory "course". But, it's gonna be kinda hit-n-miss, as far as finding a good instructor, unless you live in an area where climbing is really a part of day-to-day lifestyle for a lot of people. Most places you could look in the phone book and find a wide choice of possibilities for learning to play golf, but in many (if not most) parts of the country, climbers are not going to be so "public", and maybe not so willing to "teach" a newbie. I agree, that out in the field, on the rock, the vast majority of people are very, very nice, and instructive if asked. In the gym can be a little less so.
Anyway, keep reading and posting here, and read books, and keep at it. Common sense and openness to learing, directly and through observation, will go a long way. There's always gonna be somebody out there who's done it for a lot longer than us, and only occassionaly are they going to continue to be rude and arrogant into their maturity as a climber.
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geezergecko
Feb 3, 2003, 2:17 PM
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At the crag or in the gym you can quickly glean the ability of a climber. Not so if that person posts something here that sets off a 4 alarm fire. Many will assume the worst on rc.com whereas if we encountered the situation in person then the apprehension level would be more accurate.
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orangekyak
Feb 3, 2003, 2:47 PM
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yeah, like gecko said.
Just about every answer to every question involves some further background info. Those answering have NO IDEA if the "newbie" asking it knows anything of the background info.
Sample question (not to pick on anyone):
"I just started leading and I want to know what to do at the end of a lead climb."
My first thoughts - "If he started leading doesn't that mean that he's already led a climb? Hasn't he already been there? Wasn't he climbing with someone more experienced? If he can't figure this out maybe he's not going to be able to improvise his way out of an epic (like getting to the end and finding no anchors/top-out). Maybe I'll give him info that will put him in over his head ..."
As you can see, my mind instantly goes to the worst case scenario. And I think that's a good thing. A good (alive) climber considers all the dangers.
Regarding repetitive postings, I think that's encouraged by the structure of the site. If you don't see it on the front page, you figure it hasn't been talked about in a while. A newbie might not know their way around the site.
Perhaps instead of "go search" (my favorite answer), people could continue to post a link to a couple relevant threads.
o.k.
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boulderingmadman
Feb 3, 2003, 6:43 PM
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realize on thing. as much as we more experienced climbers may want to help, an internet forum is a difficult place to do so. you cant show examples unless they exist on another site, you cant "draw a picture" for it to be plainly seen, and you have to deal with the idiots that really DONT know what theyre talking about posting inane and WRONG answers.
with that said, i usually try to help. i wont read a topic if i dont plan on giving a reasonable answer(in the beginners forum ). but alot of times, its tiring to hear the same question asked, over and over ad nauseum...
how many times have you heard "How do you get the rope up there?" and how annoying is that? well, its the same here. most of these topics are archived and searchable. the information hasnt changed, just the people posting it.
its easier, safer, faster, and more thourough to get the information from somewhere in the real world. thats not a copout to say "take a class", its reality. we cant "show" you the proper techniques on a forum. we can discuss it, but misunderstandings occur regularly, and alot of these cases, a misunderstanding could cost a life...
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vertical_reality
Feb 3, 2003, 7:01 PM
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The one thing I'm tired of hearing....
"Toproping sucks, its not even real climbing."
Apparently every climber on this site lead a 5.12 their first time out and I'm the only climber who started out on a toprope.
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boulderingmadman
Feb 3, 2003, 7:07 PM
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i think youre taking the phrase too personally, vertical_reality.
youll find that the more you climb, the harder it is to get the adrenaline rush, or endorphin kick, that comes from climbing. the way to get this back is to "step it up" a notch. take the skills youve learned from TRing, and put them to the test on lead.
everyone starts out TRing. most of us very quickly progress to the next level of leading. I am personally of the opinion that a climb isnt done until its done CLEANLY, with no falls, on-lead. thats, of course, my opinion.
and being of that opinion, i have to laugh when someone says, "I just sent my first 5.8 on TR!!!" cool, good for you! now lead it...thats the point. the sharp end is where its at. noones trying to belittle your achievements, but once you prove to yourself that you can do the moves physically, take it to the next level....
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vertical_reality
Feb 3, 2003, 7:19 PM
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True, I totally agree. I'm going to start leading trad as soon as it warms up. But for an advanced climber to tell a beginner that he's not rock climbing because it was a toprope is total crap and makes them come across like an a$$hole. There's no need to bash another climber (and it happens alot on this site) because of the way he chooses to ascend, just let them do it and have fun. Why ruin another persons acheivements becuase they are not at you own level?
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redpoint73
Feb 3, 2003, 7:22 PM
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The great thing about the "Search Button" comment is that other replies will eventually answer the original question anyway!!!!!!
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mhr2000
Feb 4, 2003, 2:38 AM
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I can understand how it can be annoying dealing with the same questions over and over, but this is the beginners section and it kind of goes with the territory.
I don't see it necessary to know the full background on someone to explain how to setup top anchors or anything else. If you explain it to them and they don't understand, they'll respond back and let you know. This would really help experienced climbers with the frustration factor of having to try figure out what level somebody is at.
I definately like the links people post to relevant threads instead of saying "go search". I've searched this site more times then I want to count and still miss great topics because I didn't quite get the wording just right.
BTW, thanks for the positive posting everyone, I'm sure this could have went south quite easily.
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flying_dutchman
Feb 4, 2003, 2:58 AM
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there was this awesome question/answer a few days ago:
'which end of the quickdraw is used on the rope? One end is a bent gate biner and the other is straight'
to which someone replied,
'go to an indoor climbing gym and take lead lessions. Its a great way to learn lead safely.'
im not quoting the exact words; i try not to remember lame advice but anyhow, but a perfectly valid beginner question got mutalated here. Mabe the dude did know how to lead but never noticed that the biners are different or mabe he used his friends wiregate biners?
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limittester
Feb 4, 2003, 3:02 AM
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Just responding because I made that post about the draws. I was very offended by the way some responded. I am glad that someone else noticed and said something. Egos are like everything else, the higher they go the harder they will fall. My friend who taught me how to toprope and climb all together just moved. He has been climbing for 12 years and I (being a newbie) saved his ass one day. We were about to repel on a double rope and he only ran one rope through his figure eight, so everyone can make a mistake and its the overconfident that get hurt.
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flynnypek
Feb 4, 2003, 2:45 PM
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I'm a beginner that goes to the gym twice a week, talks to people, and reads books... if that information is not enough... then I post a message. When you do this, at least all the experienced climbers won't make u feel you're dumb.
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boulderingmadman
Feb 4, 2003, 5:23 PM
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the hardest part of learning something nerw on here, is really understanding what is being said. i wouldnmt explain on the net hoiw to rig an anchor for a TR. why? cause i DO n eed background info. i need to know what kind of rock, wether the features are flared, solid placements or so/so. what kind of climb? is it dynamic, or pretty sytic and easy? what kind of gear? passive, active, semi-active? what sort of features? chocks, blocks, cracks, huecos?
see, there is ALOT of information thats needed to safely build and anchor, for any reason. often times, the easiest way is to have someone show you, right there. then all the questions are answered by the person seeing the situation.
also, and we ALL know this to be very true...words get muddled on a forum. if someone is asking a "how-to" question, and i respond, and they mis-read what i post...they could get hurt, or worse. if you dont know what youre doing, you may not even know that you arent understanding correctly.
anyhow, this is why i, and im sure many others, recommend learning from someone in person. its really not a personal thing. most of us remember where we started and are willing to help. but id rather show you in person, than try to explain it over the internet. to much room for confusion and mortal mistakes...
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ricardol
Feb 4, 2003, 5:56 PM
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i confess that i was the one who said "Why do you buy gear that you dont know how to use?" ..
.. (and i also confess to being a newbie .. been climbing for only 5 months -- and only leading trad for 2 weeks) ..
.. in those 5 months that i've climbed i've bought alot of gear, and sometimes before i even knew how to use it -- but i've also read A TON of books on all the basic techniques to use the gear .. and all the books available do a great job answering the basic questions like "which end of a draw goes on the rope, and which goes on the bolt?" ..
.. it seems to me that if you already bought that gear, and are still asking questions like that, that you will go to the crag and completely miss some life-saving techniques.. (knots, load balancing, etc) ..
.. i also confess to going ot the crag without all the right knowledge, and being lucky to still be alive ..
.. the worst thing i've done was to lower someone down a cliff, by belaying them off my harness .. luckily i thought about anchoring myself to the top of the cliff .. (which was not very important at the time -- i just thought it would be a good safety measure! -- now i know its a MUST DO!) .. when he went over the edge i was inmediately pulled down to the floor, and my anchor came inmediately taught!) ..
.. it was a $#!&ty anchor too, consisting of 1 sling girth hitched to a post cemented to the cliff, and then with 1 locker attached to my belay loop. (the lesson: ALWAYS have REDUNDANT systems) ..
.. so even though i survived after making dumb mistakes.. i'd rather other people not make those mistakes and kill themselves ..
.. my latest lessons was to not try to lead trad on soft sandstone (psychologically difficult pro!) .. and to always discuss with your partner the state of your gear -- i handed several cordalettes to my partner for a toprope anchor, he set it up, and lowered without checking the knots -- i had not made any real knots on the cordalettes, just tied them together to store -- he ended up lowering off some granny knots ...
.. luckily we all survived --
-- ricardo
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phugganut
Feb 4, 2003, 6:24 PM
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Being much newer to this site than to climbing, I don't mind reading (and answering) questions that some people seem to get snitty about. But hey, if you see a post inre a question that's been answered before, and you don't want to answer it again, then just skip it. No one is making you read all the posts and give your answer. Of course, after I've been on this site for years, maybe I'll be b!tching about it, too.
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mhr2000
Feb 4, 2003, 6:52 PM
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bman, although you make some valid points you tend to miss some. This is where the problem comes in to play.
You say "what kind of rock, wether the features are flared, solid placements or so/so. what kind of climb? is it dynamic, or pretty sytic and easy? what kind of gear? passive, active, semi-active? what sort of features? chocks, blocks, cracks, huecos?"
Well, in all honesty, do you think everyone has a partner available that knows every type of anchor known to man? I'm not talking about Gym employees or guides. Money is an issue with both. People come here for answers that they can't find elsewhere or would have to pay for. I don't see why it's so difficult to ask for clarification and then answer their questions. If it is difficult then don't bother and somebody else will answer it.
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