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robscate
Sep 11, 2003, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You obviously don't have any idea what it takes to run a business. This is America, and the customer IS always right.
Dude you have obviously no idea of buisness dynamics...
the customer is usually never right...but the customer is always the customer...
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redpoint73
Sep 11, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: the customer is usually never right...but the customer is always the customer...
Of course I don't mean that the customer is LITERALLY always right. You miss the whole point to that old saying. It means that you please the customer, even if you think that he is wrong. Yes, the customer is always the customer. And the point is to keep him your customer. You don't do that by making him pay shipping fees because you don't think he should have cancelled the order and returned the merchandise.
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robmcc
Sep 11, 2003, 7:13 PM
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I think the sad but simple truth is that companies which follow the "The customer is always right" ethic have largely been put out of business buy the companies that realized they can make a bigger margin if they tell the customer to bend over and pretend they like it.
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rockvoyager
Sep 11, 2003, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Cancelling a order (before it is packed/shipped) doesn't cost them a penny. What do you mean "administrative costs"??? LOL!!! Sounds like lawyer jargon for "we don't have a name for this charge cause we just made it up". Crediting back your card takes 2 seconds. The person who took your order, and cancels it is getting paid by the hour. The cost to the company is the same regardless of whether your place/cancel an order or not. That person probably would have just been sitting by the phone sipping coffee anyway. I doubt their phones are ringing off the hook with people on hold. If anything, there is a small charge for the CC transaction. There will be some small costs if they actually have to ship the order, then take it back. But as I discussed before, this is part of the expected cost of doing retail business. Are they entitled to compensation for their "administrative costs"? Regardless of what their policy says (if it even says anything), making the customer happy is paramount. Getting a few buck back to cover the shipping is nothing when compared to the potential future sales lost by not giving top service.
RP
When a retailer accepts a credit card they are charged a fee by the credit card company. I think it's around 3 percent of the total. Does the credit card company keep that fee when the item is returned or do they reimburse the retailer? Maybe some of the business owners could answer that for us.
The internet is a really powerful tool for feedback, be it positive or negative. Maybe we need a tracking tool like Ebay has for capturing feedback and posting the results. I wouldn't worry to much about one persons negative experience with a company, we all make mistakes. But if several people had a bad time I would think twice.
Brad
In reply to: :roll: Your problem started when you cancled your order because you found the better deal you cheap f#$ing ba$tard. A deal is a deal and you pay your money and take your chances. Everybody is out there trying to make a liveing and you back out of a deal cause it wasen't the lowest price in town and then come crying to me :roll: What a loser. What do you do? go back to the freaking gas station and say, "take this gas back :evil: I don't wan't it caus it's 10 cents cheaper down the road" Get your head out of your arse and stop slandering a buisness because you are a cheap F#ck :roll:
To much rage man, get a life
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mark99
Sep 11, 2003, 8:11 PM
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I have read this forum and thought I would add my 2c worth to this.
People say how he should have bought the goods as he made an agreement, how you should not spread rumours and how hard it is in the world of retail.
Now, I have worked in retail for sometime, including running one for several years. What type of business, the computer buisness, where we work on making 16% margin is a good thing.
The company is there to make money. To make money you have to have customers. Now it is up to the customer to decide whether he wants to shop at your store or not.
If you state in clear writing that you allow up to 24 hours to cancel your order, then this is a selling point to the customer. It does not matter why the customer cancelled, whether he found a better deal or not. The store stated it's policy and it has to stick to it. What makes this worse, is when a store accepts this the cancellation and then still sends it out. This is a person who has told a lie. Blatent lie to a customer.
In this ady and age, what I look for in a company is a good price (does not have to be the best) is service. The customer here has every wrtie to talk about his bad experiance at the store, why? because he recieved crap service. I have noticed that no one has stated that they have had good service form this store. How will other people find out if people out if you do not speak out... how do you know this store or company is not doing this to other customers? If they are they will soon learn how to treat customers.
If you make a mistake you take responisbility for your actions and not tried to piss the customer off... What they should have done, is just apologised to the customer and asked him why he cancelled, when he says that it was the price, see if they can do something about it.. either match it or even maybe use some sales skill to work somthing out. If nothing could be worked out, just accept the return and move on, I would even call back a few days later and ask him if he was interested in ...what ever we had on sale... suddenly he is not telling all his friends about the crap service but probably about the sales guy at this place and how friendly he was...
Nobody can stop word of mouth advertising, but I do beleieve if you have to make it in this world of retail, customer service is the key to this. YOu state your policy and you stick by it. You say what you can do and you do it. You do not try to make a cheap buck off some crappy mistake.
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redpoint73
Sep 11, 2003, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: I think the sad but simple truth is that companies which follow the "The customer is always right" ethic have largely been put out of business buy the companies that realized they can make a bigger margin if they tell the customer to bend over and pretend they like it.
I can't completely agree. I'm sure it happens sometimes. But there are many successful companies out there that are willing to work with the customer to make them happy. Othes have mentioned Shoreline, Gear Express, Mgear, etc. As I have already mentioned, REI will take practically anything back. And that company RAKES money in. I have a friend that returned 6 year old hiking boots to REI because the "stitching was coming out". He was refunded the full original price.
Similarly, many gear and outdoor clothing companies have lifetime guarantees on their products. I've heard BD customer service is excellent. They will basically just send you a brand new piece of gear if you ever have a problem with a piece. I also talked to a guy that sent in a sleeping bag to get some down added because it had lost its loft (don't remember what company). He just told the company to charge him whatever they thought was reasonable. The company sent him a new bag free of charge.
Vote with your dollars. If you like a company's service, give them your business. If not, take your business elsewhere.
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redpoint73
Sep 11, 2003, 8:42 PM
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In reply to: RP When a retailer accepts a credit card they are charged a fee by the credit card company.
Yes, I know. Presumably, you missed the part where I said:
In reply to: If anything, there is a small charge for the CC transaction. There will be some small costs if they actually have to ship the order, then take it back. But as I discussed before, this is part of the expected cost of doing retail business.
By "CC" I mean credit card. Perhaps I was unclear.
And yes, tradman has a lot of pent up angst.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2003, 8:52 PM
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No Hidded rage just bored from all the tame posts arround here and this one seemed to be pretty good material for a flamefest and I had a head full of whisky :roll: (personaly thought it was a fairly creative flame) Notice all the cute smilies. On a more serious note I am a horse show photographer and in my buisness rumors mean a lot and it is all about who knows who and what so and so said. As a result of this enviornment I end up kissing a lot of a$$ to stay in buisness and it really pisses you off when you get taken advantage of by scam artists and cheap pricks but you just have to suck it up and make them happy. I Know that is lame but it its the way it's done. Admitidedly the company should have processed the return quickly but the customer still pulled a slimy move.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2003, 9:04 PM
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On the subject of legal rights vs moraly correct behavior of course that is up to each individuals personal standards. I just purchaced a new Mac G4 system and after 2 lengthly meetings with a local salesman /consultant were we discussed the system that I would need to run my buisness, I had picked his brain for a lot of info but had no legal obligation to purchace from him. I could have legaly bought the system on the web for several hundred less and totaly blown this guy off. I did not do that as I knew he had given me several hours of his time and I felt moraly obligated to buy the system from him as long as his price was resonably fair even though it was not the lowest.. that is just me. I know lots of people who would have screwed the guy and never had a second thought about it.
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redpoint73
Sep 11, 2003, 10:21 PM
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And you probably figured he could give you good tech support, or good service when you needed to buy more computer equipment. I agree, its not always about price, but service as well. Or giving local merchants your money as opposed to giant super stores.
I did the same thing (on a much smaller scale dollar wise) when buying shoes at a local climbing shop. I was planning on finding the right model/size at the shop, then ordered them online for a better price. But the employee was so helpful in bringing me a bunch of various models and sizes and was very cool about it all. So I ended up buying from his store.
I'm glad you mentioned that you were kinda tongue-in-cheek with your prevosu posts. I took them as totally serious, despite the smiley faces. It was scaring me.
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mcfoley
Sep 11, 2003, 10:25 PM
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If you paid with a credit card you could just challenge the charge (should have) & refused the package!!!
it' s pretty simple, just play stupid...that shouldn't be too hard...just kidding!
:lol: :idea: :!: :x
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nopro
Sep 11, 2003, 11:04 PM
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As far as the complaint about K&R goes, I think the initial posting was made in bad judgement. Kind of like hitting someone in the heat of the moment instead of cooling down first. Remember, once you post it, you can edit but often the damage has been done.
Mainly, I wanted to say--(Not necessarily on the original topic, but...)
Redpoint 73 wrote:
In reply to: Thats BS. Most retail businesses markup merchandise a MINIMUM of 50 percent -- often more. Sure, a lot of this goes to overhead and paying employees, but the companies still make out very well in the end. That's why they can afford to have huge clearances and sales, or sell overstock to discounters at the end of the season. A few bucks here and there to resolve a problem is purely trivial. Its EXPECTED that part of the money they make will go towards people returning goods. It's important for climbers to understand that the markup on climbing gear is pitiful. While on clothing, stores buy from the manufacturer and mark up 100% (meaning if the store buys it at $60, customers will buy it at $120), in climbing gear, a $60 item only sells for $100. That is, the cost on climbing gear is 40% off retail. From a retail perspective, that really sucks, especially since selling climbing gear is a time- and labor-intensive transaction. When you see a pair of climbing shoes or a cam on sale for 20% off, that is a screaming deal! The retailer is taking a bloodbath on that one. Don't be fooled! NO ONE IS GETTING RICH SELLING CLIMBING GEAR, NO MATTER WHAT! Not even the manufacturers. Making climbing gear involves R & D, quality control, marketing and other costs upon costs in order to keep your life safe while you enjoy climbing. Maybe it seems like you're paying a lot for gear, but we all know it's worth it in the end. That said, I have to throw this out there, too: DON'T FORGET ABOUT YOUR LOCAL SHOP! YOU KNOW, THE GUYS AND GALS YOU GO IN AND TALK TO ABOUT YOUR LATEST REDPOINT AND WHO LET YOU TRY ON NEW SHOES AND HARNESSES... SO YOU CAN GO BUY THEM FOR 5% LESS ONLINE! That's the worst! Don't forget that local shops need your business, too. Think about it: What's worse, spending an extra couple of bucks on a cam (then having to deal with possible returning hassles) or watching the local shop that puts on crag cleanups go out of business because everyone spent money online? :cry:
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 12, 2003, 12:14 AM
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He's not kidding when he talking about 40%. I get my gear at cost in trade for photo services at the local gym and while 40% makes a huge difference on big ticket items like ropes and ice tools it is supriseing how little a biner or quickdraw is marked up.
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tenn_dawg
Sep 12, 2003, 1:19 AM
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I've got to mention this as it is a point I am very proud of.
I have only purchased 1 order of climbing or outdoor gear from an online seller.
Everything else has either come from the local gear shop, second-hand from climbers, or bootied off the wall.
I once saw a middle aged woman go into an outdoor store. Ask the manager to help her with boots. She tried on several pair and sizes, then when she decided which ones she liked, she asked the manager to write down the exact product number, and she left.
No doubt, she went home, and gave her money to an online seller.
That's BS boys and girls. I felt so sorry for that poor manager and that poor store that I bought every bit of my gear for a trip to Alaska from them.
I mentioned the lady to him several hours later when we were ringing up all my stuff, and he said that he gets that more an more these days. He was the store owner. Really nice, down to earth guy with a love of the outdoors, and the drive to start a business.
The next year that nice guy and his shop went out of business.
I swore I'd never be like that freaking Lexus driving housewife who couldn't even give her money to the guy that helped her.
Ugh, my blood pressure is rising.
Travis
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mewalrus
Sep 13, 2003, 4:26 AM
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Yea, the Walmartization of the world.
What a boring world it will be... :(
I try to support my local shop, they don't have the best selection of gear tho.
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tyify
Sep 13, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Oldeclimber....You are indeed a prick...Tell us the name of your buisness so we won't ever buy from you....if this is your idea of customer service....
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ryanhos
Sep 13, 2003, 8:10 AM
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Cost of properly canceling the order:
1 hr labor by unskilled worker: $8 + 15% FICA and benefits = $11
Cost of improperly canceling the order:
2 hrs labor by unskilled worker: $22
1/2 ship-back cost: $9
Never making a dime from an upset customer who clearly has disposable income: $50-?
I know how I'd rather run my business..... Being in business is a risk. Those who win are those who understand how to minimize and control that risk.
On a side note: Even though their inventory STINKS, Moosejaw is a nice little company with awesome shop managers and a fun atmosphere. (both online and off) Yes, the "stinks" comment is a bit harsh. But everytime they lack what i need, I've never heard a "you can order it online from us" or "we can get that in stock in a week for you." Their Chicago location is small, so they have an excuse for having a small inventory, but they could still at least attempt to get the gear I need/want. Sadly my next large purchase for my college club won't be from their local chicago store because they lack the depth of inventory I seek in the area of 6-9 person tents. But every time they do have what I want, the manager gives me a great deal and more importantly, a reason to call him first everytime I need to make a purchase.
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organic
Sep 13, 2003, 9:28 AM
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This could be slander so watch it!!!! or is it liable? or whatever that word is
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oldeclimber
Sep 13, 2003, 2:25 PM
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Anyone noticed that SEMorrison has left the building.
Just more proof that he doesn't follow through on anything.
I'll bet he is laughing at all of us, since he got to waste our time too.
Suckers....all of us!!!!
SEMORRISON WROTE:
In reply to: After a further phone conversation with my girlfriend |
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oldeclimber
Sep 13, 2003, 3:49 PM
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nthisthebesta wroteIn reply to: Oldeclimber....You are indeed a prick...Tell us the name of your buisness so we won't ever buy from you....if this is your idea of customer service....
If you do business like Mr. Morrison........
Then Yes, I am indeed a prick and No thanks,
I don't want or need your business.
Because after all.....Doing business with you, or your hero Mr. Morrison, would amount to nothing more than a waste of my time and a loss for my business.
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knrgear
Sep 13, 2003, 5:04 PM
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The soul purpose of this response is not to stir more anger, it is only to tell a second side to the story, as there is always 2. In the case of the order that many of you have already read about, Mr. Morrison placed an order with our company. The order was pulled, and held for 24 hours, as it is our policy to accept cancellations within 24 hours. Shortly after this was done, we received an communication from Mr. Morrison stating that he no longer wanted the order to be filled. We responded with the simple statement "Your order has been cancelled." and it was. In sending the email, within a short period of time we received a phone call from Mr. Morrison, stating that he was sorry for the confusion, but he still wanted his order to be sent. We verbally agreed that his order would be sent, still waited the 24 hours, then filled the order.
Shortly after the order was shipped, we heard from Mr. Morrison, stating that he received notice he was getting a package from the deliverer, and he did not want it. We informed him that if he did not want the order, he could refuse the package, it would be sent back, we would refund his money (less 15% re-stocking and shipping as this is our policy clearly stated on our website.) This was not satisfactory to Mr. Morrison, therefore we stated we would research the order and get back with him within 24-48 hours. The research was done, and we found that as the order was re-placed over the telephone it could have been a miscommunication. We responded stating that we would refund the full amount of the product and reimburse for shipping if he would include a receipt. We also specified shipping instructions, and stated that if they were not followed that we would only refund the amount that the package could have been shipped for if the instructions were followed.
We received the package, and found that the shipping instructions that we specified were not followed. We also found that through 3 different companies we could ship the package for half the price that was paid. We also found that on the receipt it did not itemize the cost. We concluded that this purchase could have been for more than one item, or even for a personal purchase. We then responded with an email to Mr. Morrison stating the amount that would be refunded, and sent the refund.
Our understanding was that Mr. Morrison was satisfied with this amount as we did not receive a response from him. We found days later that Mr. Morrison was not pleased with this resolution from a concerned individual (whom we sincerely thank,) and that he had posted his dis satisfaction on several web pages. We as business people would have hoped that Mr. Morrison would have contacted us, and the matter could have been resolved.
We apologize to those of you who consider this bad business. Our only hope is to satisfy the customer, and we are known for going the extra mile to get a customer their order on time. We have been in business for over 4 years, and work hard to please our customers. We do believe in the statement "The customer is always right" However we also believe that "There are 2 sides to every story"
We also thank those of you who respond in our defense. If you have any further concerns please email us at knrgear@srv.net Also, Please feel welcome to forward this message to anyone that it might concern or benefit.
Again we apologize for any misunderstandings. Our goal is not to demean any person, only to defend our business, and our operations. We would consider it bad business to sit back and watch our company be slandered as it has. We also request that if you know of any other sites that Mr. Morrisons message has been posted to, please contact us or feel free to post our response.
Thanks again, K&R Adventure Gear
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arrettinator
Sep 13, 2003, 8:01 PM
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bump
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oldeclimber
Sep 13, 2003, 10:27 PM
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KNRGEAR......
Nice to see you stepping up and defending your position.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 13, 2003, 10:56 PM
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You know, when I first read knr's response, I believed them and figured that morrison was an ass.
After some reflection I kind of find knr's scenario hard to believe.
they stated that morrison placed an order online, cancelled the order via email, received a cancellation confirmation, then morrison changed his mind again and wanted to reinstate his order via telephone, then changed his mind again before he received the package. After that many changes I find it hard to believe that morrison would be so affronted as to go to the trouble of making such an issue out of this.
I could easily be wrong but, my sense is that it is more probable that knr made a mistake in processing the cancellation and the supposed reinstate phone call was outright manufactured by someone.
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redpoint73
Sep 13, 2003, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: It's important for climbers to understand that the markup on climbing gear is pitiful. While on clothing, stores buy from the manufacturer and mark up 100% (meaning if the store buys it at $60, customers will buy it at $120), in climbing gear, a $60 item only sells for $100. That is, the cost on climbing gear is 40% off retail. From a retail perspective, that really sucks, especially since selling climbing gear is a time- and labor-intensive transaction.
Wahhhh. You need to learn about other forms of business before you start looking for sympathy. I work in a service industry where a 10 percent profit margin is a GOOD year. I'm not going to feel sorry for any retail business. Outdoor gear shops INCLUDED.
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