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dietzpa
Dec 11, 2003, 7:02 AM
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I've stuck with a major delema here in Boston; damn I love climbing, and I've of course caught the bug everyone here shares, but outdoor climbing is limited for me. I'm devout to gym climbing because it's the only thing I can get close to in the winter, but I can't stop thinking about going outdoors.
As a fairly good climber I'll top rope 5.12s in the gym, but that's not worth a damn outdoors. My climbing buddy and I own some trad gear and have screwed around leading/toproping outside at a little local spot but we're trying hard not to kill ourselves.
Aside from reading every possible post on this site and John Long's climbing anchor book, how do I progress into trad climbing without killing myself. Despite a death wish that rivals Evil Kenival, I dont have much going for me. How do all you pros (that i read about so frequently) learn the ropes when you're not born and raised around desert towers?
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exposed
Dec 11, 2003, 7:09 AM
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Don't stop climbing! Try learning a little aid climbing wether it be on toprope or lead. this will put you in a position to know how the gear works or doesn't work since in aid you must weight your gear. Also equalizing your anchors is very important in trad. Keep reading john long's book over and over. Do easier climbs repeatedly, like 5.6-5.8, and each time maybe use different pieces of gear. Use your head and you should be fine it just takes time to learn the skills. I hope this helped.
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holdplease2
Dec 11, 2003, 7:19 AM
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Key to not getting yourself killed is building great anchors...out of less than perfect circumstances. I lived in Chicago, so I faced some of the same challenges you do...8 hours to the red!
Setting up Anchors: Set up anchors by placing nuts in cracks behind doors, slinging door knobs, and extending runners up to clothes-racks or whatever. Get fast at equalizing...watch the angles between your peices, just get fast. Get the "anchors" book. Carry your rack to the park where there are rocks and look for gear placements. Hey, it isn't a puppy, but it might get you laid!
Escape the belay/self rescue: throw a bag of gear in a stuff sac and put it on belay hanging over a coat rack or whatever while you are tied to the anchor you built out of your door frame. Now escape the belay. Build a 2-1 haul system (to help your injured partner/whatever) Get the "self rescue" book.
Gear Placements: When you get outside, place more gear than you need to when you are close to the ground. It will give you great practice AND it will keep you safe. Experience and judgement over time will make your placements better and better. In the mean time, buy yourself some insurance by over-protecting.
Thoughtful Climbing: As you go up a route ask: What happens if I fall right now...will you deck? will you hit a ledge? Could your face smash an overhang? What can you do with your pro to remedy the situation?
Also, as a new climber with less gear placing experience, ask yourself "what would happen if that last peice pulled?" Would you deck? When you are a beginner, think about whether you want to have just one peice between you and the ground...again, buy yourself some insurance.
Have fun!
-Kate.
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cliffmonkey2003
Dec 11, 2003, 8:50 AM
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I moved
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swede
Dec 11, 2003, 8:52 AM
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You learn trad by learning from mistakes. And as you have realized mistakes can get you killed – which means that you must get into the (trad) mental game (no guts – no glory).
Books are useful, training by yourself is too (placing pro wherever possible) and you will be safer while placing gear on toprope. But you will ultimately has to get a thorough test of your placements (and the function of the “system chain” of pro). There are two ways I know of to learn this:
1) learn by yourself - by falling on it
2) learning from an experienced climber what works and what´s dangerous - and when fall on it to get an answer if they did really know that they were talking about! A backup toprope is useful in the start, but you will have to get used to falling on only trad pro (the sooner the better).
I strongly advice to learn by method 2…. I don´t know how things works in the US, but I assume you can find courses there the instructors both are experienced and has learned how to teach their knowledge to others? Thereafter – find an experienced trad mentor who will keep an
eye on your first trad leads and/or letting you drag along as number two a couple of times.
If you then feel comfortable about trad – don´t ever forget Darwinism and that fate has nothing to do with if you end up as a statistic or not. That will (hopefully) keep you from ending up as statistic, because you know that you will need to climb with safety (always, not just on difficult climbs).
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kathy
Dec 11, 2003, 10:41 AM
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In reply to: 1) learn by yourself - by falling on it .
I'm pretty new to trad too. I have seen quite a few quotes about falling on purpose - but how do you do this - just let go??? i don't think i have the guts to.... also, imagine i get hurt falling on purpose - i mean that would really s@#k - if i fall coz i can't do anything about it - then that's fate - but to fall on purpose??
I'm a bit of a chicken - do you really manage to say - ok, last placement 1 metre below - one two three - let go!???
K
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cjstudent
Dec 11, 2003, 1:30 PM
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i am a very new trad climber so maybe you should take what I say with a grain of salt, but I think we were sorta in the same boat.
My advice is to find an experienced trad leader and be his 2nd. That way you can see what good placements look like and the key to building bomber belay anchors.
If you can't manage that i suppose you get to try my method and just go out and lead trad. I practice placing protection at low levels, and did my best to try and pull it out through bouncing and jumping off ledges to simulate a fall, that way you sorta learn what is bomber and what is not (wear a helmet! haha)
After that I took off up a route that i knew was way within my ability level so I could concentrate more on making placements rather than having to worry about the climb itself. Sew up that route! Think about your first placement, it needs to be multidirectional so it would accept a force down, if you fell on it, or a force that may pull it out (because as you get higher and place more pro the bottom piece may have funny pulls on it by the rope if you fall higher on other pro and you don't want the first piece to pull)
Are you thinking about single pitch or multi-pitch. With your anchor you need to remember SRENE method. Make it bomber, yet simple. (and believe me I h ave had some complicated anchors in my day) I have found my favorite way for do an anchor is using a cordalette to equalize my pieces.
Also, on your first climb make sure you allowed enough day light to finish! No joke, on my first day of trad leading we thought we were doing pretty good and started up a last two pitches and it got dark so we had to bail out.
-Aaron
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: Aside from reading every possible post on this site and John Long's climbing anchor book, how do I progress into trad climbing without killing myself. Despite a death wish that rivals Evil Kenival, I dont have much going for me. How do all you pros (that i read about so frequently) learn the ropes when you're not born and raised around desert towers?
Good luck and see you at the BRG
Josh
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thinksinpictures
Dec 11, 2003, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: Hey, it isn't a puppy, but it might get you laid!
I've been hoping for this to happen for SOOOO long. :(
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bonesbrigade
Dec 11, 2003, 2:50 PM
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My advice wold be to take a class, perhaps the EMS three day leanr to lead course. I don't recommend falling to test gear placements, I would suggest learning what the right thing to do is and depending on the fact that you did the right thing. See how each piece of gear works on the ground, i.e. how cams work as a storng crow bar between two rocks, so make sure they are stable rock, because the force is put outward in both directions, if you know how your gear works, then get out there and try leading on easy routes, then progress as you fele better about your skills.
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redpoint73
Dec 11, 2003, 3:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 1) learn by yourself - by falling on it . I'm pretty new to trad too. I have seen quite a few quotes about falling on purpose - but how do you do this - just let go??? i don't think i have the guts to.... also, imagine i get hurt falling on purpose - i mean that would really s@#k - if i fall coz i can't do anything about it - then that's fate - but to fall on purpose?? I'm a bit of a chicken - do you really manage to say - ok, last placement 1 metre below - one two three - let go!??? K
Its a pretty crappy idea, actually. I've cleaned for lots of beginning trad climbers as a means of evaluating their gear placements, and have seen a good deal of shoddy placements that probably would NOT hold a fall. Take an "intentional" fall on a placement like that, and you likely WILL get hurt. Unless you are extremely confident in your ability to place good gear, placing yourself in a fall situation is not a great idea.
Most of the threads about "falling on purpose" apply to sport climbing. Not as a means of testing gear, but as a way of becoming psychologically and physically accustomed to falling. More experienced trad climbers may spend a good amount of time falling on their gear. But I don't know too many climbers that would say this a good way for a beginner to learn.
An exception: a friend of mine tested his gear placements by jumping off a short wall (at Hammond Pond) toward a big stack of crash pads. The assumption was that the gear placements would NOT hold, but hey actually all did.
Placing gear on the ground and pull testing it is a good way of learning. Be sure to protect your face and other body parts when you pull. Mock leading is good too (placing gear while on top rope). If possible, make friends with more experienced trad climbers. They can evaluate your gear placements, and teach you things that can't be learned from a book. Seconding an experinced climber is good experience as well. You get to see how that person would protect the climb, and what their gear placements look like.
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cracklover
Dec 11, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Dietzpa,
If you really climb at that level, you should have no problem finding experienced trad climbers at the BRG (the local gym here in Boston) to climb with. That's really the best way to progress (IMO). But as for learning the fundamentals, you could take a class with someone like Marc Chauvin up in North Conway next spring - that would put all the stuff you've learned from books into context, and give you a solid foundation and a framework on which to build.
But again, best thing is to find yourself a mentor.
Being in Boston may suck in the winter, but at 4 hours to the Gunks, 3 hours to North Conway (Cathedral and Whitehorse), and 1 hour from Crow Hill, there's no reason not to become a competent trad leader. And there's no shortage of competent trad leaders around to bribe with beer and belay slavery.
GO
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 4:03 PM
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hey cracklover,
I saw your picture in the new issue of Boston Rocks. How'd you swing that. Do you know someone or was is just dumb luck. By the way, I don't know if you know who i am yet, but I haven't seen you at the gym to reintroduce myself.
Josh
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dingus
Dec 11, 2003, 4:07 PM
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Read all you can about Henry Barber. He lives/lived in Boston too.
Just remember, the only time you are a trad climber is when you are trad climbing. If you want to be a trad climber there is only ONE way to do it... by doing it.
DMT
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swede
Dec 11, 2003, 4:12 PM
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Well, I think I should do a little disclaimer on my original post so someone don´t get the wrong idea (since it´s not that easy to convey your exact thoughts in writing a foreign language).
Falling on pro is DANGEROUS (obvious, but maybe not in writing) and should never be taken lightly. But you can choose to fall there you can´t deck, has several pieces under the placement you test etc. Compare that with if you do place gear on trad without knowledge of that´s good or not and you fall at a non-planned spot, WHEN you can get into REAL trouble (hitting the ground, pinnacles etc).
By using the second method of learning, you greatly reduce the risk (that’s why I do recommend that and NOT number one). But since falling is something that ALWAYS includes risk – take care and don´t do it for the thrill. Trad lead is about risk management – you need to trust your placement, but not so much that you get lazy and relaxed about safety issues.
Falling should worry you, not so much that you can´t take a fall, but enough to throw in the towel if you know you if you have questionable pro.
There is also a two reasons why I say “the sooner the better”. Most important is that if you do trad climbs without knowing that your placements are crap, you are close to climbing without protection. Second is that you might end up in that we are calling the “toproper trap”, which means that you have a good technical climbing ability but can´t even climb easy trad.
It also comes down to that you want with your trad lead: just being able to do climb that is well within your physical limits or trying to master the mind game (coming close to your toprope ability). My personal goals is that half of my climbs should be trad lead and that I should be able to climb with half the “normal” difference between toproping and trad (basically not letting my mind set the limits but my strength and endurance).
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cracklover
Dec 11, 2003, 10:35 PM
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In reply to: hey cracklover, ... Josh
Josh - I responded by PM.
Short answer - they seemed to think it was a good photo, despite the ugly guy in it. De gustibus non disputandum est...
Cheers!
GO
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timstich
Dec 11, 2003, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 1) learn by yourself - by falling on it . I'm pretty new to trad too. I have seen quite a few quotes about falling on purpose - but how do you do this - just let go???
No, when it happens it happens. That said, hanging from your own gear is testing enough IMHO. Being totally afraid to climb because you might fall is the issue, but lots of trad climbers still subscribe to the "leader does not fall" style of climbing and so they go years without falling.
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sspssp
Dec 11, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Learning to trad climb without finding an experienced (and hopefully patient) partner can be difficult (and perhaps dangerous).
Most of my partners were taught by somebody more experienced. All of my partners who say they were "self-taught" all have horror stories about their learning experiences.
So I guess the moral is to try and get out and meet experienced trad climbers
As far as intentionally falling on gear. If you find a crack that has a bolted anchor, you could back yourself up loosely on a toprope. So that when you intentionally fall, the piece/leadline should catch you, but if it pulls, the toprope catches you before you deck. Obviously you would have to be very careful about your distances as the consequences of misjudging would be severe.
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j_ung
Dec 12, 2003, 7:01 PM
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Yah, sspssp has the right idea. Fall on purpose... with a back up in case your placement fails. however, even with a TR backup, it's possible to catch a leg in the rope and flip upside down, so watch where your feet are, relative to the rope. If you already know how to sport lead, then you probably already know this.
Another method is to practice "French free," (apologies to any French people). Tie in on TR. Carry a full trad rack. Don't use any handhold that wasn't placed by you. Oh yeah, wear a helmet, unless you want the BD logo tatooed on your forehead.
j_ung
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2003, 7:48 PM
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i'm quite the gumby so take my advice within that context, but here's how i've learned what i know so far.
a) i climbed in the gym a lot, especially during the winter. first, it helped me improve general technique. second, leading in the gym gave me a relatively safe place to practice leading and clipping .. this was especially important to me as i had absolutely no outdoor partners at the time and didnt particularly want to waste time when i could be improving upon something. and third, it gave me a chance to meet people. i never really ended up climbing outdoors with my gym buddies, but they gave me helpful beta on all sorts of things.
b) i found more experienced people to climb with. this helped substantially with reinforcing the fundamentals that i'd read in books and gave me a safe way to push my limits outdoors. (i spent a solid year seconding routes before i start leading trad.) i also made some good climbing friends and picked up little bits of gear along the way. i would generally offer to drive or pay for gas (nearest climbing was 4 hrs away, so picking up the tab was certainly a useful bribe), and after a few months of getting outside, i also learned that beer is a useful bribe.
guides are a solid way to go if you have the money, but they can also get expensive if you're just paying someone to have a partner. post in the partners forum on rc.com and maybe check to see if there's a local climbing site. i've also been to gym with a partners board, so i posted my name there as well. honestly though, i've met most of my partners through the web and have had pretty good luck so far.
best of luck!
amber
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2003, 7:58 PM
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re: falling on purpose. i know several climbers who would be on TR with some slack in it as a backup and basically just jump off the route to test the gear that they've placed. i've never done it and dont have much desire to, but i suppose that it's one way of testing your placements. when rigging the backup TR, though, make sure that the slack is sufficient to test the gear but wont allow you to hit anything on the way down.
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usmc_2tothetop
Dec 12, 2003, 8:06 PM
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OK.....completely random question sorry. But how do I post something up on the recent messages box on the main page???
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 12, 2003, 8:13 PM
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go to the appropriate forum and click on "new topic"
New posts and recent replies in all of the major forums show up on the the front page list.
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usmc_2tothetop
Dec 12, 2003, 8:15 PM
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thnx :D
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dredsovrn
Dec 12, 2003, 8:16 PM
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Read the books. Follow an experienced mentor for a while. Lead some easy routes on top rope. Have your placements evaluated. When you are ready, lead an easy route. Practice and progress from there. Oh yeah, be careful, but understand your threshold for risk taking.
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scubasnyder
Dec 12, 2003, 8:47 PM
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when i first started climbing trad, i was a bit scared to trust my life to stoppers and cams, and placed them every 5 feet, but now as i progressed i place them less and less, which is probably bad, but if it is a hard move i place 2 stopers or a cam or something i dont know, its all preference i guess, you only get better by doing it though.
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tedc
Dec 12, 2003, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: .... how do I progress into trad climbing without killing myself ?...
2 words: BELAY SLAVE.
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sspssp
Dec 13, 2003, 12:35 AM
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In reply to: Another method is to practice "French free," (apologies to any French people). Tie in on TR. Carry a full trad rack. Don't use any handhold that wasn't placed by you. Oh yeah, wear a helmet, unless you want the BD logo tatooed on your forehead. j_ung
French free, or full on aid is a good way to learn about placements (if it doesn't hold body weight/bounce testing, it sure ain't going to hold a fall). This can be safely done on TR.
I second the wear a helmet and I would add eye-protection (a decent pair of shades is enough) and look down (not at your piece). When a stopper pops out, it can really come flying out and do serious damage if it hits you in the face.
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gipsy
Dec 18, 2003, 8:48 PM
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The thing that helped me the most with trad leading was to 2nd folks much better than me and clean. Once I was comfortable w/ the cleaning, THEY cleaned the majority of the route, then I TR'd and placed gear (say you'd use 10 - 12 pieces of pro; they lead, then you lower while they pull all but "x" # of pro; you climb, placing the appropriate pro as you go (they give you only what you need to "fill in" the route); then you get critiqued - the fun part - HAHA!) Then, if you're a lucky as I was, you get to go back up, clean, then rap off. Doing that over and over really helped. It added a lot to reading the books that haave already been recommended.
As for the whole falling thing, it's gonna happen. Building that aspect of climbing into your routine is as important as anything else that you do. Learning how to minimize the impact of a fall on yourself something everyone needs to learn, and as crazy as it sounds, if falling can be "second nature", then you are less likely to be hurt as badly than if you are flailing.
Good luck, and BE SAFE!
G
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hoofers_andy
Dec 18, 2003, 9:07 PM
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learn to trad climb:
step one: second
step two: clean
step three: second
step four: clean
step five: second
step six: clean
step seven: repeat steps one through six
step eight: do it all again
step nine: lead
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bustinmins
Dec 26, 2003, 3:21 PM
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I would recommend several books:
1. Anchors
2. More Anchors
3. Moutaineering: Freedom of the Hills
4. Self Rescue
I would place lots of pro in small rocky areas in and around your area. You may not have a lot to play with but at least try.
With experienced help, learn how to set up a rappel (on the ground) and also how to use the SRENE concept you'll read about.
Then when you feel ready - take an experienced person out with you and follow them a couple of times or get a guide. Believe me it is worth your life! :)
Find a single pitch trad route that is WELL BELOW your lead so you don't have to think about the climb and can focus on the pro placements. Find a route that has bolt anchors at the top and then climb this route over and over with a different pro mindset as you go. For example: "On this climb I want to place as many nuts as possible" "On this climb I want to place as many hexes as possible". "On this climb I'm going to place as many cams as possible." This will teach you to see the route differently each time. Also when you ascend each time, look above each placement for your next placement and then get there. Don't just climb and wait for something to appear. That may happen but it keeps you short sighted. :) Think about this: What will happen if I fall here? Will I crater? Will I pass my second who is belaying me from the edge and thus take them over with me? Is this a traverse? If so protect before and after each hard move so that your second is safe as he or she cleans the route. These things you have to think about and they don't pop out of books but come from experience. I'm an airline pilot and one thing we say is that good experience comes from living through bad decisions. :) Climbing is no different. You will make mistakes. You have to learn from each climb. There are lessons on each one. The key to remember is that you can't make many mistakes at all on the rock. There is too much at stake and some things have to be solid before you even go on day one.
I would like to second the opinion that this forum is a good place to pick up hints but you have to have a beginning knowledge to know which ones are good or not. Find a good partner who has experience or get a guide to learn. If you can, second quite a bit as that will help you immensely.
Peace,
JD
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latesia
Dec 26, 2003, 4:39 PM
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You might try going to Ringer Park in Brighton. There is some "ledge" rock there at the back side of the hill. I don't know if there are any cracks, since I lived there long before I started climbing and didn't take note of things like that but at least there is a good view of the City. Also Franklin Park has some ledge in it.
I'm a beginning trad leader also, but would recommend adding down-climbing to your list of skills to develop. Lead an easy route and then down climb it. Its a good skill if you have to back down and you can re-evaluate your placements on the way down.
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freakystyley
Jan 3, 2004, 2:00 AM
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I like that "french free" method - in fact I am going to take a guy out and do just that. he is ready and able - but lacks the "trad head." down climbed off a route the other day before the crux - an easy 5.6 that he could have freed. TR'ing with a couple feet of slack and let him "aid" up with a rack sounds like just the thing to learn about placements.
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stirnie
Jan 10, 2004, 2:21 AM
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A good thing to practice is setting up hanging belays in your gym. The problem is getting the owner to let you. This really helped my get used to being crowded and with some of the confusion of an anchor. Doing it in the gym is nice because you don't have to worry about placing gear, you can just concentrate on technique and get better at running the belay smoothly. If you have questions on how to do this, I am sure there are more than enough people willing to help.
-Stirnie
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hosh
Jan 10, 2004, 4:10 PM
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Second a lot. That's how I got into sport and then trad. I just seconded and cleaned every pitch I could until I was pretty sure of what a good placement looked like. I took a good look at every peice of gear before ICleaned it, too, to make sure the placement was bomber. Find someone in your area who climbs well and see if they'll let you be a belay slave while they stich up a few cracks. Then just get on the second and clean, clean, clean. Pretty soon, you'll start to get a feel for what's what. But even with all the seconding I did, my first trad lead was scary as hell and I had the elvis shake in my leg for the whole climb! It was hard for me to learn to trust the trad gear.
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