|
kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 4:54 PM
Post #1 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
Has anyone ever done this. I know they are stellar for aid, but if one is placed solidly, can it hold the average fall. I think they are good for 6 Kn but want to know what others think. It just has to be placed perfect for that kind of strength, and the range is so small.??
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
justin
Feb 24, 2004, 4:58 PM
Post #2 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 196
|
I was also wondering about this. A set of 8 Aliens is obviously cheaper than buying them individually but for trad: does one really need the smaller ones?
|
|
|
|
|
factortwo
Feb 24, 2004, 5:04 PM
Post #3 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 18
|
I have mostly only used the black alien for aid climbing. I used it several times on trad free leads, but it has to be placed very carefully and I nearly crapped my pants climbing above it. My partner (125lb female) took a good sized fall on a well placed blue alien and the cams were deformed. It had to be sent back to CCH for repair but it held the fall real good.
|
|
|
|
|
vulgarian
Feb 24, 2004, 5:08 PM
Post #4 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 381
|
I can't say for sure because I haven't taken a fall on a black alien. However, I have taken a good whipper on a #1 metolius and it held just fine. In fact I inspected it and fell again (bad day). The cam was worked and I sent it to Metolius for inspection and they let me replace it at their cost.
I guess the point is that anything has the potential to hold and anything has the potential to fail. There are just too many variables: placement, camming angle, rock surface quality, etc.
My advice: When in doubt, back it up and equalize.
|
|
|
|
|
ilona
Feb 24, 2004, 5:31 PM
Post #5 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 3
|
A friend of mine: Super thin crack at Jtree, first and only piece a black alien about shin height. Foot popped off a thin smear. Alien held just fine.
|
|
|
|
|
shakylegs
Feb 24, 2004, 5:38 PM
Post #6 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2001
Posts: 4774
|
A partner of a friend fell on the Black about 3 times, the fourth time it popped and he broke his back. He's better now.
The accident was rather fortuitous, since I got to use his Gunks' pass that week. Personally, I would try to back it up, if you have to use the Black.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 5:51 PM
Post #7 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period.
It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation.
Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 24, 2004, 5:58 PM
Post #8 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
The strength rating is for the piece itself.
For the black alien I worry about the cams opening up more than the strength of the piece. If the black alien wobbles at all so that the cams open up, it is going to be outta there, so I don't typically carry one when free climbing unless I expect that there might be incredibly grim pitches with no other possible pro. Since I don't usually climb on those kinds of routes where I actually think falling on the bad pro might be possible, I rarely have the black alien along.
But...If it's perfectly placed and doesn't move it's pretty strong...assuming you are not 250 lbs and looking at taking a factor 1.8 fall on it.
I have fallen on the blue. It held, but upon closer inspection, I saw that it BARELY held. (Two of the lobes were out.) I've had yank-tested yellow and red aliens and that ripped out under the higher force of me falling on them when the placement flared. You can experiment with what the bigger ones will hold and then decide what seems reasonable for the black and blue.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 6:05 PM
Post #9 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
I just spoke to CCH.
According to their own preresentative (the owner), the black alien is not designed to be used as a free climbing piece, and states this on its tag.
This does not mean it will not hold a free climbing fall, only that it is not intended to do so.
The Blue Alien is the smallest Alien rated for free climbing falls.
|
|
|
|
|
madmax
Feb 24, 2004, 6:12 PM
Post #10 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 354
|
Who cares what CCH says about the intended use of the black alien. I have fallen on a black alien at Ophir and it held. I wouldn't say it inspires comfidence, but when its all I got, you're damn sure I'm gonna place it.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 6:21 PM
Post #11 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period. It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation. Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.
Total B.S.
8.3KN mfg. rated strength. This is better than most biners open gate strength. Better than #4 and #5 BD stoppers(similar to the black alien in size)(Are they unacceptable for free climbing as well.)
That said; the piece may be good, the placement may not. The placement must be precise; not likely in rock that is not hard and smooth. They can be solid in good granite.
I think ricardol took a pretty good fall onto one during his solo of Zodiac (nipple pitch?).
Maybe not great but WAY better than nothing.
:wink: SCREAMER :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #12 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
Well said madmax
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
vulgarian
Feb 24, 2004, 6:28 PM
Post #13 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 381
|
I just looked at my Blue/Black hybrid alien. I probably wouldn't choose to set a black alien unless I was in a desperate situation and it was my only choice given a worst case scenario. For me, I like to climb hard but, I am rather conservative when placing pro; as wheel-chairs and being spoon fed strained peas has little appeal to me.
|
|
|
|
|
crackboy
Feb 24, 2004, 6:51 PM
Post #14 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 323
|
i fell on a black alien at Jtree climbing buisaneer or however its spelled. it was the first piece i was able to get in and it kept me off of a nasty flake below the start.
granted it wasn't a fall on fall i was downclimbing it and slipped like 1.5 to feet abve the piece
|
|
|
|
|
mark99
Feb 24, 2004, 6:56 PM
Post #15 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 92
|
I do not post many replies, as most of the time people here use there common sense, but this one, someome has thrown common sense out the window....
The product states it is for aiding. The manafactur states it is for aid. Store owners state it for aid.
I do not give a rats what the strengh rating on it is. It was design, built and made for aid use.
Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else..
So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 24, 2004, 6:57 PM
Post #16 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
As far as what you heard from CCH, they are a company, and companies have liability, they shouldn't have to be responsible for every gumby that places the piece wrong. What Dave tells you is what his lawyers tell you to say, on top of that, he probably doesn't like you. That's what makes him so cool.
I fell on my black alien, hard. I was on an easy route and really didn't think I'd fall, I slipped and whipped. It was the only piece between me and the ground. I fell probably 10 feet and the rock was questionable Navajo sandstone. I'm convinced.
If the placement is bomber, great, but a good stopper that size is a lot more secure if you know how to place it right. The only deformation of an alien I've had was on a green that I repeatedly fell on in granite. The black one probably didn't deform cause the rock was softer than the metal :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 24, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #17 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
Question for you geniuses that refuse to place the Black Alien in lieu of NOTHING for pro when free climbing:
How many of you have ever fallen on NOTHING and had it hold?
When you venture away from the sport crags, you don't always get 3 evenly spaced, equalized pieces at your anchor, and you can't always protect the crux with a number one camalot either. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that you may have to deviate from the text book or manufacturer recommendations, take real risks, and rely on your ability to climb through a poor pro section without falling as your #1 parachute, then you should stick to routes whose protection scheme you can clearly see from the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
btreanor
Feb 24, 2004, 7:16 PM
Post #18 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 121
|
The black alien is "only for aid." What does this mean, that no one falls while aiding? Of course if the choice is between a black alien and a #8 stopper or a #2 Camalot, you leave the alien on the rack. But, seriously, if the choice is between no pro and less-than-ideal pro, just place the alien. I've been caught (on free climbing falls) on teeny-tiny HB offsets and RPs. Maybe being caught is always better than decking for sure...
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 7:30 PM
Post #19 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: I do not post many replies, as most of the time people here use there common sense, but this one, someome has thrown common sense out the window.... The product states it is for aiding. The manafactur states it is for aid. Store owners state it for aid. I do not give a rats what the strengh rating on it is. It was design, built and made for aid use. Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah... What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall? It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else.. So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
mark99,
Just to emphasize my point BS,BS,BS :x
How does "common sense" have anything to do with the liability issues surrounding whether a munufacturer "states" that a piece is for "aid only"? What does aid only mean?
I state that it is just another piece of gear to be used at the climbers discression. If the climber looks to other climbers for advice to bolster that discression, more power to them.
So you care what the manufacturer states that the piece is supposed to be used for but don't "give a rats ass" how strong they say it is??? :?
People place crappy gear all the time. Doesn't matter what its "stated use" is. How people use thier gear is NEVER my responsibility, it's thiers. Anyone who makes protection descisions based on what they read on the rc.com probably won't last too long anyway.
So is the black alien (A) made any differently than the blue alien which "they" say is OK for Trad? Or (B) is it just a bit smaller and less strong? (B is the correct answer here).
Good placements have NOTHING to do with luck. You had better KNOW what you are doing; especially if you are climbing above a black alien.
mark99, you seem to be a victim of the modern tendancy to let others (lawyers in this case) make your descisions for you. It is all just information. Take it in and make your own descision, and take responsibility for it.
Sorry, I hope this doesn't keep you from posting again but I think the most dangerous thing a climber can do is to let someone else "think" for them.
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Feb 24, 2004, 7:41 PM
Post #20 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
In reply to: Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
you just lost your bet. the folks climbing routes that require pieces like a black alien know well that it might blow.
In reply to: What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself?
that would be tragic.
In reply to: are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
oh please. mind numbingly stupid leap of logic aside, each and every climber assumes responsibility for their own gear. i'd rather fall on a black alien that i place than a #2 camalot that the guy in the cubicle next to mine placed. if you are such a sheep that you blindly follow advice on the internet without thinking it through, i suggest a different sport - perhaps bowling or lawn darts.
In reply to: It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else..
how long have you been climbing anyway? a year? mostly in the gym? do you know what a grigri is? did you know that in addition to being an ok belay device, it is a fantastic ascender for cleaning aid pitches, and not a bad soloing device either. petzl doesn't recommend either of those, but hundreds of people are out using the grigri every day for those tasks with great success.
In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side....
luck is good. on the other hand, so is good judgement and experience. i'll take that over spewing about manufacturer recommendations any day.
In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use.
and the piece de resistance in the gumby safety lecture. do you even know what a black alien is? you might have a really hard time fiddling a hex into that thin shallow seam the black alien works well for. the only other piece that really takes the place of a black alien is a bolt, or one of the wild country micros that are weaker than the black aliens.
|
|
|
|
|
kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 7:55 PM
Post #21 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing!
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
crakhed
Feb 24, 2004, 7:58 PM
Post #22 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2003
Posts: 13
|
Word up Andrew!!!!
A black alien beats no alien!!!
As far as reccomended use as stated by manufacturer, who cares what the KN rating is when you have 120 ft. of rope out and you are faced with a 20 foot runout (because you could use the black alien in a nice seam, but the tag emphatically states NOT FOR FREE CLIMBING), or you could think for yourself, and place the alien in blatent disregard for the manufacture's warnings(being the radical rebel you are). If you are wondering about the security of a black alien, you should not be on a climb where one is needed.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Feb 24, 2004, 8:06 PM
Post #23 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
BTW I don't own a black Alien, and rarely carry one freeclimbing, but I have been thankful to have it when nothing else (on the rack) would fit.
The cam choices around that size include the smaller #3 WC Zero, which I think is rated to 10kN, and the slightly larger .1 Microcamalot (don't know the strength).
|
|
|
|
|
thedesertnomad
Feb 24, 2004, 8:08 PM
Post #24 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2003
Posts: 216
|
Like many here seem to agree on... better than nothing. The thread simply asks "falling on a black alien", lol To finish that in my opinion is simple, "it can work, and really really suck" I have done it twice, once it held, the other time it did not. The time that it did NOT, sucked because it smacked me square in the forehead and caused me to fall an additional 20 feet or so. The time that it DID hold sucked because I wasn't too high above it, but run waaaaaay out on the piece below it and I wasn't sure that it was going to hold. On both occasions it was that or nothing. (well I suppose I could have cam'd a small ledge hook in the seam, but I wasn't going THERE)
Moral of the story is I wouldn't reccomend it, but it beats a sure-fire decking experience
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Feb 24, 2004, 8:14 PM
Post #25 of 85
(9021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing!
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Feb 24, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #26 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated). Obviously, if you can get something better in, you should. If you can't, it might protect you. Adding a screamer is a good idea. If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
There was a review not too long ago in one of the climbing mags that suggested sliders (lowe balls or whatever they are called now), would generally have a greater holding power than a similar sized micro cam. I would certainly believe it.
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Feb 24, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #27 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use.
Your rant was semi logical up until this statement - once you uttered this your inexperience became clear and you lost all credibility....
|
|
|
|
|
timmah
Feb 24, 2004, 9:36 PM
Post #28 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 19, 2003
Posts: 93
|
In reply to: If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
Sspssp probably knows this, but just to remind anyone that's forgotten, Aliens don't have cam stops and won't hold passively.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 9:36 PM
Post #29 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
there is a difference between terms here
Aid Only: means that it will only hold body weight or a small fall
the black alien is not an aid only piece .. its rating is good enough to hold a leader fall in a trad situation ..
.. and a lead fall doing aid can be as bad as a lead fall doiing trad .. in fact aid is probably worse because the climber weighs about 30 lbs more than when free climbing .. (the weight of the rack)
i took a fall on a black alien on the 10th pitch of zodiac .. the piece was well below my feet ..
.. when i placed the alien i was very sure that it was a perfect placement .. so i was super excited that it had held ..
.. the alien didn't even budge from its placement .. and the cams were not deformed .. in fact i still carry that piece on my rack ..
-- ricardo
.. i carry the piece on my trad rack .. but rarely place it .. (it has to be the ONLY placement possible for me to use it.. )
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 9:39 PM
Post #30 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
In reply to: Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing! Stephen
well shit -- if you want to sell it.. i'l take it off your hands...
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
headcase
Feb 24, 2004, 10:01 PM
Post #31 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 26
|
In reply to: Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing!
Stephen, don't be a dumais. Put it on your rack, climb awhile (read: all summer), find those few times when it's the best piece for the situation, be particular about the placement, then get on with it...
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 10:07 PM
Post #32 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
Ricardo-
Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock.
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 10:32 PM
Post #33 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
In reply to: Ricardo- Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock. Stephen
.. i usually sell my used gear for 50% ..
but since its new .. how about 30% off ..
lets see thats about $16 from $54
.. $38 ..
.. truthfully you might find someone that will give you close to what you paid for it .. and i suggest that you do keep it ..and carry it on your rack .. one day .. it will be the only piece that fits ..
.. i've once had to build a belay out of
1 - black alien
1 - blue alien
1 - larger piece
scary shit.. (granted thouh i was pretty secure as i belayed behind a large block)
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Feb 24, 2004, 10:52 PM
Post #34 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: In reply to: If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out. Sspssp probably knows this, but just to remind anyone that's forgotten, Aliens don't have cam stops and won't hold passively.
Yes, I did know this. The chance of it holding is small, but I had a black alien "shift" on me under body weight. It slipped about 2 inches vertically and then held. Surprised the hell out of me. Surprised that it slipped and even more surprised that it stopped.
In addition to my "bury the head" comment above, I would also generally recommend "overcamming" the unit [again as much as you dare]. The expansion amount is so little on the black alien, start with it cammed almost all the way down. This will give a little greater margin.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 11:13 PM
Post #35 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
A black alien is better than nothing.
A screamer on it is good sense.
However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one.
The cams themselves, because of size, have much reduced holding power, even though the pieces "breaking" strength is high. It is not a liabilty issue, because no one could sue me successfully resultant from a behavior linked to a post here. Simply put: The cams will rip out of the rock at a lower force than would be required to bust the thing.
I had my watch keep me from falling 50 feet once by having the crystal catch itself on a rock crsytal, but I wouldn't advocate using my Swiss Army Watch as a viable method of protection.
As for as calling it an aid piece, it is meant in this way: The piece is designed to hold body-weight placements and little more. Anything beyond that is icing on the not so rich-and-frosty cake.
I am sure one could find a situation in which duct tapes has held falls.......
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Feb 24, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #36 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
While climbing at looking Glass I took a thirty footer on the BLack Alien. Maybe it's not designed for Free climbs, but when you need a peice, use what ever fits best. Proper placement is key.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #37 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing!
Actually, someone did say SCREAMER, (me), but it certainly warrants repeating.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 11:21 PM
Post #38 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: Ricardo- Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock. Stephen
I sent you a PM with an offer for a "approved for trad use" cam to trade for your alien. PM me if interested.
|
|
|
|
|
slcliffdiver
Feb 24, 2004, 11:36 PM
Post #39 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 489
|
In reply to: I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
If you put it too deep to see the cams well you could end up with inverted cams and a pulled alien. It's hard enough to see the inner cams with shallow placements. Part of the skill of placing micro cams is finding that line between how close to the edge is too close and how far is to deep to see the inner cams. One question why do you think the lip of the rock on thin cracks will break easier than large cracks?
Will I trust one no, but how happy I will be with depends on placement and fall factor I'm expecting. If I'm carrying one I'm going to have a screamer to go with it.
In reply to: A black alien is better than nothing. A screamer on it is good sense. However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one.
Well said and ditto.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Feb 24, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #40 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: .. one day .. it will be the only piece that fits ..
Good suggestions.
There are other cams in that size range though. The #3 WC Zero overlaps but is smaller (10kn IIRC). The #4 is slightly larger with a little overlap. The .1 Micro Camalot is just a little bigger (don't know the strength though).
I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 25, 2004, 12:18 AM
Post #41 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
In reply to: I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else.
Why?
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Feb 25, 2004, 12:22 AM
Post #42 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: In reply to: Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing! Actually, someone did say SCREAMER, (me), but it certainly warrants repeating.
One more time. Everybody, all together now.
SCREAMER.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 12:34 AM
Post #43 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: POST #1 “The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period. It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation. Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.”
POST#2 (Small step back) “I just spoke to CCH. ….This does not mean it will not hold a free climbing fall, only that it is not intended to do so. The Blue Alien is the smallest Alien rated for free climbing falls.” POST#3(back pedal, back pedal, back pedal, back pedal) A black alien is better than nothing. A screamer on it is good sense. However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one. The cams themselves, because of size, have much reduced holding power, even though the pieces "breaking" strength is high. It is not a liabilty issue, because no one could sue me successfully resultant from a behavior linked to a post here. Simply put: The cams will rip out of the rock at a lower force than would be required to bust the thing. .......
Say what you really mean the first time or admit that you were wrong. Read the posts. Black aliens can, and have, held significant falls. They are useful pieces of protection, even for trad, on certain types of rock.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 25, 2004, 12:35 AM
Post #44 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
In reply to: One more time. Everybody, all together now. SCREAMER.
Or you could try my favorite...Do everything that you possibly can to AVOID FALLING ON YOUR UNTRUSTWORTHY GEAR. I fully agree that the placing the black alien is safer than placing nothing at all, but respecting your limits and staying within them when climbing over delicate/suspect gear is better pro than winging on a black alien with a screamer any day.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 12:38 AM
Post #45 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: In reply to: I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else. Why?
Yeah davidji, why. :? Just comparing the rated strength of several micro cams is a horrible way to make a choice as to which will serve you better as a piece of protection.
|
|
|
|
|
diesel___smoke
Feb 25, 2004, 12:57 AM
Post #46 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
|
Kodos, ever use a #.1 or .2 camalot for trad climbing?
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 4:18 AM
Post #47 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
So you guys are whining about climbing over a piece (the black alien) that is between the two middle zero friends in size?
WHIMPS!!!!
I've fallen on the green zero (aid piece) a lot. I'd fall on any zero except the purple one LOL.
But then I'll climb over #1 ball nuts and opposed aid nuts, so I'm not a very good role model.
And my guess is that if the piece will stay in the rock, your screamer might do you some good, but I'm thinking from what I've seen, that crappy rock or poor placements are why these pieces come out, and the screamer probably won't even activate in those circumstances. Now if yo uare talking about breaking the tiny cable on some small nut, then I think a screamer woudl really help.
Just a theory.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Feb 25, 2004, 5:18 AM
Post #48 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
1. Any cam that small may be dicey, but why not get one rated to 10kn instead of 6kn for roughly the same size range, and save a little weight while I'm at it (for the Zero). Dunno how the Camalot compares.
2. I watched a partner (you might know him: Tom, climbs at Ironworks, big guy) bust an undercammed green Alien under bodyweight (at the time I think a little over 200 lbs). I like the two Aliens on my rack, and if they're clean and operating smoothly, the ones on partner's racks too, but I'm in no hurry to buy more. 'cept maybe hybrids...
|
|
|
|
|
manacubus
Feb 25, 2004, 5:27 AM
Post #49 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2002
Posts: 141
|
My buddy took the whip onto a black placed in super-hard rhyolite. Bugger all rope out as it was the first or second piece in the route, i.e. a jarring fall. The black held fine. If it didn't, he would of hit the deck.
That reminds me, does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers? I've certainly never seen this, except perhaps with preplaced gear on sketchy grit routes.
|
|
|
|
|
crackboy
Feb 25, 2004, 6:44 AM
Post #50 of 85
(8264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 323
|
i agree with melissa, just try not to fall on it. the hard part about using such a small cam with a small range is that the difference between a well place cam and an under/overcammed one is small thereby making what may seem like a good placement rubbish.
as far as screamers on trad climbs, i always bring one with me, unless i knew ahead of time that there was some manky pins i needed to clip such as on a bunch of routes at the gunks
|
|
|
|
|
crux_clipper
Feb 25, 2004, 7:24 AM
Post #51 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2001
Posts: 531
|
well, four pages was alot to read, so i thought i would skip ahead and come back to the original question.
I 'dynamically' rested on cluster of gear placed behind a thin flexing flake. the nut ABOVE the black alien pulled right down and out the bottom of the flake, the alien stayed strong! my belayer was crapping himself more then i was.
|
|
|
|
|
cfnubbler
Feb 25, 2004, 2:49 PM
Post #52 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 628
|
In reply to: does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers?
Yup. I often carry screamers. My home crags are loaded with RP and micro-cam seams. If I didn't use black aliens, RPs/Swedges, etc. as free climbing pro, I'd never get off the ground.
I've had tiny cams and wires from several manufacturers rip. I've also had them hold. It's ALL about the placement.
CCH states that the black alien is not for free climbing. They understandably do this to cover their as*ses in our overly litigious society. All the while they know perfectly well that they'll be used as free climbing pro and build them accordingly. If they really were "for aid climbing only" (i.e. body weight only), 8.5 Kn is overkill. Are cam hooks "rated" at 8.5kN? If they were rated at 25kN would you be psyched about them as pro?
A friend of mine from the UK tells stories of doing FAs in the slate quarries outside of llanberis. The rack sometimes consisted of a set of friends and a sky hook. The hooks were set on edges and the friends were used as ballast to keep the hooks in place. Do you suppose the hooks were approved for free climbing?
Learn the limitations of your gear, take the manufacturers advice in to consideration, then make your own decisions. Me, I'm gonna place the black alien everytime and then keep looking for more pro soon.
-Nubbler
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 4:03 PM
Post #53 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: That reminds me, does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers? I've certainly never seen this, except perhaps with preplaced gear on sketchy grit routes.
I carry them about half the time and use them about half of that. I'll probably get this wrong and get "math flamed" but I think that means I use them on like 25% of my routes. I've never fallen on one hard enough to activate it.
|
|
|
|
|
kansasclimber
Feb 25, 2004, 7:51 PM
Post #54 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 541
|
for all of those that wanted my black alien, I think im going to keep it. It sounds like it may come in handy, and why have i had a good 4 or 5 people ask me for it. That means it must be worth somethin. Anyways thanks to everyone that posted.
And here's my FINAL THOUGHT:
Black aliens are NOT rated for free climbing. They are, by the manufacturing scale, only for aid climbing. The balck alien sounds like it will hold a free fall IF placed correctly. Over 8 Kn of strength is easlily enough holding power to catch an average person. This is not recommended but people have and will do it anyways. The black alien will be used to sew up many cracks to come, but not without precautions. If you place one, and its all you got, just dont fall. BETTER THAN NOTHING. If in doubt take up a screamer. Climb safe, and remember to protect the 2nd.
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 25, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #55 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
David, you asked why the black alien instead of something else.
The alien places better
All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
The alien has been refined and re-refined through customer input, that alone makes it better than WC zero's, they are too new
Whoever said he ripped a green, it probably happened. You can rip anything you place wrong. Is your friend green and bendable....Gumby.
|
|
|
|
|
madmax
Feb 25, 2004, 8:53 PM
Post #56 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 354
|
In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
No. The gist of many posts here is that sometimes there isn't another piece to use, so using the black alien is better than not placing anthing at all.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Feb 25, 2004, 9:06 PM
Post #57 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
In reply to: David, you asked why the black alien instead of something else. The alien places better All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
I freely admit to being a surreal climber.
I do not use the black alien, nor do I own one. I do have quadruple blue through red, and a double set of hybrids.
Although I've been climbing 30+ years, aliens are not that old, so in 15 years of experience with them, and 10 with the black alien, which debuted sometime @ 1994, I have used it and found that more often than not, something else does work.
Case in point: Honky Tonk Woman 5.9 Shawangunks, Near Trapps. The crux is protectable (?) by a black alien, but 3 of the camheads make contact and one is unstable, all while sitting at a ridiculous angle to the rock. Instead, a 00 Hugh Banner brassie fits perfect, as does the Purple Metoliuos TCU #1, since it has a narrower profile than the alien, and the placement was only holding 3 of the 4 alien camheads to begin with.
All that being said, a post above made a point that I felt was 100 percent accurate when they stated that knowing the limits of the gear and yourself are the most important factors in terms of any piece of gear and its use.
As a bold climber myself (many r/x routes above 5.10 under my belt, and I still seek the adrenaline rush of it at 44 years of age) the Black Aliens are not my cup ot tea.
I would also like to remind some that there is a major differnce between breaking strength and holding power. Breaking strength of the black alien may be over 8kn, but its holding power is rated less than 1kn. The acceptable threshold is usuall @ 2000lbs f. The black alien is rated below this number.
The fact is that 2000lbs of force is rarely generated. When it is, I guarantee that thing will rip. Taking a 20 foot fall 60 feet up a climb is a fall factor of .33 Even a 20 foot fall while 21 feet up a climb is a fall factor of .99999 Anything less than a fall factor of 1 does not generate as much force as you guys think becauser of the dynamic ropes we use.
No one here has a story of anything other than falls that are less than factor 1. I doubt if most that have posted even now what is really is and how it effects the amount of force delivered to the protection system.
Fall factor is an important variable and it has been ignored. When the fall factor becomes greater than 1, that piece has almost no chance of holding. That is why it is considered an aid piece.
Once fall factor get above 1, force begins to build in geometric proportions. Do some real homework. Learn about vector physics and how they effect each piece in your system. There is more to climbing than the climbing.
Do as you will, but most of you are doing so from behind a set of very thick blinders. And when things are not working in your favor, in all likelihood you will never even recognize it.
Until then, heed the advice of the dogmatic on this site with much caution.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 9:08 PM
Post #58 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: No. The gist of many posts here is that sometimes there isn't another piece to use, so using the black alien is better than not placing anthing at all.
Something is way better than nothing, haha, especially if you can get in a lot of little stuff. if you have a choice between a number one ballnut or nothing, you will place the ballnut. THe black alien is way bigger than a lot of good gear. It's how you place a piece that counts. If the piece breaks, then it was too weak for the job. IF it pulls out, then you placed it wrong, or you placed the wrong piece. In eihter case, yo might not have placed enough pieces.
But don;t lissten to me, I don;t have any aliens, so I'm not a real climber :shock: .
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 30, 2004, 9:39 PM
Post #59 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Caveat: I have never fallen on a black Alien. In fact, a couple weeks ago I backed off a route because the only pro I could get to protect a runout crux was a black Alien. For what it's worth, I fell on a blue Alien this past Saturday.
In reply to: A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated).
I disagree with this. You make it sound as if failure is random. I don't think it is. I think it is determined largely by the quality of the placement. I think a very well placed black Alien will hold a "typical" lead fall. I explain why below.
In reply to: If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it).
I vehemently disagree with the above. With small cams -- black to blue Alien in size -- the placement has to be damned near perfect to be reliable. This is because the camming range of small cams is very narrow and so there is very little room for error in the placement. Getting a good placement with a small cam is complicated by the fact that the inside surfaces of cracks are irregular. Consequently, the only way you can insure that all 4 lobes of a small cam are placed within their optimal range is to be able to see each lobe. This negates burying the piece deeply in a crack; you simply will not be able to see whether each lobe is sufficently retracted, as required for a safe small cam placement.
In reply to: On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does.
True enough, especially in soft rock. But you must be able to see whether all 4 lobes are optimally cammed. If you place the cam so deeply that you can't see each lobe, you're shooting dice.
The black and blue Aliens have about the same camming range as the 00 and 0 Metolius TCUs, respectively. A few years ago Metolius down-rated their 00 and 0 TCUs from 2000 lbf to 1000 lbf, explaining that the lower rating was because of the difficulty of getting a bomber placement with small cams (for the reasons I stated above). Nevertheless, an optimal placement -- when you can get one -- should still hold 2000 lbf (I would think). Even 1000 lbf is a lot better than nothing, and would be sufficient to hold low fall-factor falls. Since the black and blue Aliens are similar in size to these Metolius pieces, I would think that Metolius's conclusions would apply to Aliens.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Mar 30, 2004, 10:02 PM
Post #60 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
going back to kodos's post. why in god's name are you trying to set yourself up for fall factors of greater than 1? i do absolutely everything in my power to keep the fall factor as low as possible, so a well placed black alien will more often than not hold in my system.
if you are routinely taking high fall factor falls, lack of common sense is a bigger problem than lack of physics knowledge.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 30, 2004, 11:11 PM
Post #61 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: In reply to: A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated). I disagree with this. You make it sound as if failure is random. In reply to: If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). I vehemently disagree with the above. With small cams -- black to blue Alien in size -- the placement has to be damned near perfect to be reliable. In reply to: On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. True enough, especially in soft rock. But you must be able to see whether all 4 lobes are optimally cammed. If you place the cam so deeply that you can't see each lobe, you're shooting dice. -Jay
Well, I don't totally disagree with your comments, but I'll stick by my comment that a black alien "may or may not hold."
If you have the alien out at the lip where you can easily see all four cams, then I think you are taking a really big chance on the rock breaking out or if the crack is at all "hollow" and flexes just the tiniest amount, it will let the alien slip out because there is no margin for error.
So I don't believe you can have a "perfect" placement at the lip. Even granite isn't necessarily strong enough.
If you bury the head, you don't have these concerns (as much), but you trade off being able to see the cams (as well). I say it is a roll of the dice either way.
Even if you bury an alien, you can usually get some look at the cams. Even if you can't look at the cams, you can tell how much the trigger bar moves when you release it. This certainly won't tell you if every cam is perfect, but it will give some sense of how cammed down the alien is.
I'll stick to burying it (or placing a Lowe Ball), but, obviously, anyone can roll the dice as they like.
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
Mar 30, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #62 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
i've never wipped on a black alien, and i generally don't keep the smallest zero's on my trad rack, but i must agree with the overall philosophy of somthings better than nothing.
to add a bit of experience to the holding power of small cams, i have placed them (aliens and zeros) in the side of my brick wall (i think i've mentioned before how i use the manky south elevation of my 3 story home for aid practice) and literlly jumped up and down on them with both feet (we'll call this the ultra bounce test) repeatably as hard as a can without having them pull. and boy lemme tell ya, my brick wall is beyond mank.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Mar 30, 2004, 11:43 PM
Post #63 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Aliens are my favorite cams.
But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore)
The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement.
|
|
|
|
|
daisuke
Mar 30, 2004, 11:48 PM
Post #64 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2001
Posts: 904
|
I haven't heard many good things about the black alien on falls, there are pictures on this website somewhere showing what happens when you take a big fall on them: they rip out, and one girl decked because of it causing her a serious head injury. I don't own one, but I wouldn't trust it to hold a major fall even if I did!
D
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 30, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #65 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Even if you bury an alien, you can usually get some look at the cams. Even if you can't look at the cams, you can tell how much the trigger bar moves when you release it. This certainly won't tell you if every cam is perfect, but it will give some sense of how cammed down the alien is.
"Some sense" isn't good enough with small cams. The difference between whether a black Alien will hold a fall or not comes down to fractions of a millimeter. You must be able to visually inspect each of the cam lobes. If any one is undercammed, the holding power of the unit may be halved, compared with an optimal placement.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Mar 30, 2004, 11:58 PM
Post #66 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
I can't say about the black. But I have taken about a 7 foot fall on a blue. It held fine and the lobes are just a little notched from the granite. I wouldn't want to take a fall on a black.
Oh, I weigh about 175.
|
|
|
|
|
couloir
Mar 31, 2004, 12:03 AM
Post #67 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2001
Posts: 304
|
"The alien places better
All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
The alien has been refined and re-refined through customer input, that alone makes it better than WC zero's, they are too new"
Do you own any Aliens? Are you a REAL climber? If you would compare an Alien and a Zero you would realize that they have nearly identical cams. But let's compare the differences: zeros are lighter, they have extendable slings, they have a higher strength rating, the cam heads are much more durable, and their made by Wild Country, who was the first company to produce cams. I don't know if I'm a REAL climber since I own both Aliens and Zeros. I must be a sellout.
And who would have thought that black aliens would have a part in natural selection?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 31, 2004, 12:12 AM
Post #68 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Aliens are my favorite cams. But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore) The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement.
Interesting, Dan. I've always placed Aliens in preference to TCUs because I find my TCUs rotate as I climb above them. That's usually not important for the #1 or larger TCUs, but for the really small ones I would think that the rotation could ruin the placement. Do you find that the 0 and 00 TCUs rotate? Do I just need to use longer slings?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 31, 2004, 12:18 AM
Post #69 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: I don't know if I'm a REAL climber since I own both Aliens and Zeros. I must be a sellout. And who would have thought that black aliens would have a part in natural selection?
So I've been curious about the Zeros (I've used Aliens for a long time). How do you see the tradeoffs between Zeros and Aliens? If you could only own one, which would you choose? I'd be interested to know.
Unfortunately, a lot of improvements in climbing have been at the expense of natural selection (and I don't see this changing any time soon).
|
|
|
|
|
dorkmaster
Mar 31, 2004, 12:21 AM
Post #70 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 268
|
you can always double up the screamers....or triple...or quadruple...etc..hehe...not meaning to hijack the thread or anything, but after you add so many screamers in a chain, (not sure how many it would take, depends on peice) could you reduce the chance of pro failure to 0? :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2004, 12:21 AM
Post #71 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
In reply to: In reply to: Aliens are my favorite cams. But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore) The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement. Interesting, Dan. I've always placed Aliens in preference to TCUs because I find my TCUs rotate as I climb above them. That's usually not important for the #1 or larger TCUs, but for the really small ones I would think that the rotation could ruin the placement. Do you find that the 0 and 00 TCUs rotate? Do I just need to use longer slings? -Jay
At one time I quit using all my tcu's because they walk. (25 ft'r on a top rope fall) Since then I have started using them again for the reasons stated above. And yes, using long slings helps their stability. Prewalking the cams helps even more. This also allows using a short sling and counting on getting something better in soon.
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
Mar 31, 2004, 4:36 AM
Post #72 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
In reply to: you can always double up the screamers....or triple...or quadruple...etc..hehe...not meaning to hijack the thread or anything, but after you add so many screamers in a chain, (not sure how many it would take, depends on peice) could you reduce the chance of pro failure to 0? :shock:
no, becouse screamers activate at 2kn, so no matter how many you use the piece is always subject that amount of force min.
on the debate of zero's vs. aliens. well, i think they are both fantastic designs and i would rack one set of each as opposed to two sets of either. always better to have diversity, and yes i do own both. so, IMO, don't choose between them, they are both worth having.
|
|
|
|
|
kidmoab
Mar 31, 2004, 5:54 AM
Post #73 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 24
|
Back to the original topic:
My black alien was not even out of the store when this fall was set up. The sandbagger at nomad ventures in Josh says "you gotta do right V crack, in Indian Cove..." Since it's my favorite grade and it was cold that day...
They were short falls, (the piece was at my feet) close to the ground, and the "aid only" piece kept me off the deck for about three tries.
That route is way harder than 10a.
|
|
|
|
|
smithclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 6:33 AM
Post #74 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 15, 2002
Posts: 338
|
In reply to: Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
In reply to: What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
How many times do we have to say... any piece of gear is better than having none at all. If someone dies cause a black Alien fails, then they would have died from the same fall without the Alien as well. Not placing any gear at all rather than the so called "aid only" gear is just retarded logic. :roll:
You are saying that nothing is a better option than something. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use. |
|
|
|
|
smithclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 6:39 AM
Post #75 of 85
(8195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 15, 2002
Posts: 338
|
In reply to: Question for you geniuses that refuse to place the Black Alien in lieu of NOTHING for pro when free climbing: How many of you have ever fallen on NOTHING and had it hold? When you venture away from the sport crags, you don't always get 3 evenly spaced, equalized pieces at your anchor, and you can't always protect the crux with a number one camalot either. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that you may have to deviate from the text book or manufacturer recommendations, take real risks, and rely on your ability to climb through a poor pro section without falling as your #1 parachute, then you should stick to routes whose protection scheme you can clearly see from the ground.
Here ye, here ye!!! Exactly! Well said Melissa!
Crickey... when will they "get it"?
|
|
|
|
|
keithlester
Deleted
Mar 31, 2004, 5:38 PM
Post #76 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: I do not post many replies, as most of the time people here use there common sense, but this one, someome has thrown common sense out the window.... The product states it is for aiding. The manafactur states it is for aid. Store owners state it for aid. I do not give a rats what the strengh rating on it is. It was design, built and made for aid use. Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah... What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall? It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else.. So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
Quite right, Mark. I agree, its not a nice thought, somebody would take this advice on spec without working it out for themselves, that's what climbing safety is all about, taking responsibility for your own life. Nobody should take any post as gospel, the guy posting could be a BSing nutcase for all they know. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
bb
Mar 31, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #77 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: 33
|
Yeah, I took a solid 15 footer on a black alien. It held. It was in good granite. If the rock is good, stuff it in and go for it.
|
|
|
|
|
dorkmaster
Mar 31, 2004, 6:55 PM
Post #78 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 268
|
[quote="euroford"]In reply to: you can always double up the screamers....or triple...or quadruple...etc..hehe...not meaning to hijack the thread or anything, but after you add so many screamers in a chain, (not sure how many it would take, depends on peice) could you reduce the chance of pro failure to 0? :shock:
no, becouse screamers activate at 2kn, so no matter how many you use the piece is always subject that amount of force min.
quote]
oh okay, I read in Rock and Ice that you can use more than one in a chain to reduce that. I guess I read it wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 31, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #79 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
Chaining them together won't change the fact that they activate at 2kn (or whatever the exact number is).
However, if you took a really long fall, then the screamer may totally activate (reach full length), while you are still falling at a high speed. After the screamer totally activates, the forces could then go above 2kn. This is what chaining them together would prevent. After one had totally activated, the next could start activating and still keep the load down to 2kn.
As it is, I am puzzled that such a short activation length for a single screamer can really do that much (it extends what, a foot or two?), but they seem to work.
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
Mar 31, 2004, 9:51 PM
Post #80 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
by linking multiple screamers (in series) you have more total capacity for absorbing load. okay, so a screamer activates at 2kn and has a capacity to absorb 3-4 kn. so, if you took a 10kn (total) fall, the anchor would see 6 or 7kn. if you had doubled up on screamers the anchors would see 2 or 4kn.
i guess if you had three you would be guaranteed that only 2kn would reach the anchor, but you can't go less than that.
FYI, this is for standard screamers, zipper screamers activate at 2kn and can absorb 4-8kn and aid screams activate at 1.5kn and can absorb 1.5-2kn but only have a runner strength of 7kn.
|
|
|
|
|
dorkmaster
Mar 31, 2004, 10:10 PM
Post #81 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 268
|
my bad, thank you for clearing that up guys! 8)
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Apr 1, 2004, 3:41 AM
Post #82 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
I've taken 15 footers on blue aliens and they held just fine. Nothing else would work in those cracks. I've used black aliens but only taken small dynamic belay falls on them. I've used brass peanuts and taken nasty falls where the wires broke. I'll trust a black alien before I trust those peanuts, and a blue over a black, but sometimes you have no choice and something is always better than nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
david.yount
Deleted
Apr 1, 2004, 9:01 PM
Post #83 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: There was a review not too long ago in one of the climbing mags that suggested sliders (lowe balls or whatever they are called now), would generally have a greater holding power than a similar sized micro cam. I would certainly believe it.
That being shared, I always place 2 pieces (Ballnutz, Zeros, Aliens, TCUs, HB Offsets, BD Micro Stoppers, Trango Brassies) when I’m using gear this small (unless the rock does not afford it, rarely).
In reply to: Interesting, Dan. I've always placed Aliens in preference to TCUs because I find my TCUs rotate as I climb above them. That's usually not important for the #1 or larger TCUs, but for the really small ones I would think that the rotation could ruin the placement. Do you find that the 0 and 00 TCUs rotate? Do I just need to use longer slings?
I cringe as I watch so many leaders clip their cams’ slings to the rope (or use a quickdraw) and the cam rotates as they pull up past their placement.
David.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 1, 2004, 11:07 PM
Post #84 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Am I the only climber that never uses quickdraws nor places pro above my visual review?... Of course sometimes I want pro and I'm not moving up any further and all I'm given is a placement way up overhead........
Looks like you answered your own question.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
climbhoser
Sep 15, 2004, 6:31 PM
Post #85 of 85
(7946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 4, 2004
Posts: 210
|
RP's aren't supposedly for trad, either, but if it's between no pro and a black alien or an RP, I'll place the damned piece!
Alien cams are really soft metal...anytime I've fallen on them it affects them in ways it doesn't affect others.
climb on, and don't be afraid to run it out when you're in doubt!
|
|
|
|
|
|
