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jt512
Apr 6, 2004, 4:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Obviously, to be a good teacher requires good teaching skills as well as mastery of the subject matter, which is why it is illogical for you to assume that an AMGA top rope site manager would be qualified to teach a comprehensive climbing course, including traditional, multi-pitch lead climbing, which is what the original poster in that other thread you're referring to was seeking. Here is the original post, perhaps you can enlighten me as to where he asks about lead climbing, trad climbing, multi-pitch climbing? Good morning: I decided to learn rock climbing. Some friend of mine that lives oversee showed me the beauty of this sport, he does it since a couple of years and did a 4 month school/training. I looked for a school in LA, didn't find anything very interesting. Only expensive courses of 1 week or 1/2 days classes at the Joshua Tree Park. Now the question: what is the best way to learn this sport in a safe way? I don't think it's possible to learn enough in a couple of days to be safe and confident. How to find people that are good enough to balance your lack of knowledge and experience.? How did you guys start? What do you suggest me? Thanks for your advice!
Ken, the poster is lamenting the lack of comprehensive rock climbing instruction in the L.A. area. He says his overseas friend learned rock climbing in a 4-month course, but all he can find in the U.S. are courses lasting 1 week or less. Why do you think he is seeking a 4-month-long course? To learn to toprope?
Most of us who actually climb understand "learning rock climbing" means quite a bit more than learning to belay top-roped climbers on the 5.6 sport route on Raven Rocks at New Jack City.
-Jay
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 5:54 AM
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curt
Apr 6, 2004, 6:09 AM
Post #28 of 46
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In reply to: "Most of us who actually climb understand "learning rock climbing" means quite a bit more than learning to belay top-roped climbers on the 5.6 sport route on Raven Rocks at New Jack City. -Jay _________________ Is this an elitist thread?" .....Top ropers are not "climbers" in your world. Boulderers are not climbers in your world. Fine. That's clear enough.
Jay will toprope and Jay will boulder. In fact, I have done both with him. What in the world does that have to do with the points he is trying to make about the safety of climbing instruction?
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 6, 2004, 6:20 AM
Post #29 of 46
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In the states, for most people, it is not economically possible to pay someone to teach you how to rock climb.
The most you can hope for from a guide service intro course, is to learn enough to evaluate the safety practices of random climbing partners/mentors.
Whoever you end up climbing with is going to have a lot more practical impact on your habits then any number of courses. So guide courses can be useful, but finding a good mentor/partner is a lot more important and useful in the long run.
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jt512
Apr 6, 2004, 6:23 AM
Post #30 of 46
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In reply to: "Most of us who actually climb understand "learning rock climbing" means quite a bit more than learning to belay top-roped climbers on the 5.6 sport route on Raven Rocks at New Jack City. -Jay _________________ Is this an elitist thread?" No, you are just an elitist climber........you get to define what is climbing for the rest of the world. Top ropers are not "climbers" in your world. Boulderers are not climbers in your world. Fine. That's clear enough.
As usual, Ken Murray puts words in my mouth. What a shock. I did not define climbing for anyone; the original poster did by implication. Why on earth do you think he's complaining about there being nothing but short courses in Los Angeles, when his overseas friend was able to take a 4-month climbing course? Obviously, he is looking for comprehensive instruction. Do you completely lack even elementary reasoning skills?
In reply to: Listen, you've made yourself clear. The only people qualified to teach are certified instructors. You're not qualified to teach anything. I'm not qualified to teach anything. Tommy Caldwell is not qualified to teach anything.
You must either be deficient in reading comprehension or a pathological liar because you consistently distort what I write. In this case, I never said that the only people qualified to teach climbing are certified instructors. Many climbers are qualified to teach, but are not certified. However, teaching one's friends to climb and holding oneself out to the public as a professional climbing instructor are not the same. In the latter case, complete strangers have the need and the right to have some assurance of competency, which is what certification is for.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 6, 2004, 6:26 AM
Post #31 of 46
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In reply to: Jay will toprope and Jay will boulder. In fact, I have done both with him... Curt
Don't listen to Curt. Next, he'll be trying to convince you that I trad climb.
-Jay
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curt
Apr 6, 2004, 6:34 AM
Post #32 of 46
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay will toprope and Jay will boulder. In fact, I have done both with him... Curt Don't listen to Curt. Next, he'll be trying to convince you that I trad climb. -Jay
But, I never stated that you did any of those things well. BTW the last Fri, Sat, and Sun NYT crossword puzzles were uncharactaristically easy, wouldn't you say?
Curt
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jt512
Apr 6, 2004, 6:42 AM
Post #33 of 46
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Jay will toprope and Jay will boulder. In fact, I have done both with him... Curt Don't listen to Curt. Next, he'll be trying to convince you that I trad climb. -Jay But, I never stated that you did any of those things well.
Indeed I noted that omission.
In reply to: BTW the last Fri, Sat, and Sun NYT crossword puzzles were uncharactaristically easy, wouldn't you say? Curt
Damn. I hadn't been doing them regularly, so when I finished Friday's over a cup of coffee I thought I was really smart.
-Jay
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curt
Apr 6, 2004, 6:51 AM
Post #34 of 46
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In reply to: Hey, I fixed your post for you. Why didn't you say what you meant? Hahahahahaha. Curt --------------------- Well, because I wanted my post to be about the topic, not about the posters....degenerating into a personal pissing match from which no one learns anthing, and which perpetuates rockclimbing.com as a place where people just want to scream at each other, instead of have an interesting discussion. Sort of like you, having no knowledge or information to contribute on the topic, but posting anyway...... :roll:
Well, gee poser Ken, how did I miss this little gem of yours? If you were not pretending to be a climber here, what would you be?
Curt
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micronut
Apr 6, 2004, 4:06 PM
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I've been climbing 14 years, and have spawned a number of competent climbers from my apprentice pool
cantankerous Curt aside, just go out to the place you aspire to climb, say Taquitz, look for some gnarly dude with a big rack of well scratched cams who acts like he owns the place, and offer up your slave services.
Now, I think a lot of noobs need to brush up on the art of being a good apprentice. 1) always carry the heavier pack; you're in training, after all. 2) always stack and coil the rope. Very important for overall speed and style. Your beloved leader will be busy racking up. 3) learn the cordelette coil. So many jumbled messes, so little thought. 4) bring gifts, like mountainchick82 offering up the beer. 5) rack the gear exactly how you're told. You can deviate later when you're on your own. tha brings me to number 6) do everything you're told exactly how you're told to do it. If your master is good, the reasons for the methods will become very apparent over a little time.
.
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curt
Apr 6, 2004, 4:20 PM
Post #36 of 46
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In reply to: I've been climbing 14 years, and have spawned a number of competent climbers from my apprentice pool cantankerous Curt aside, just go out to the place you aspire to climb, say Taquitz, look for some gnarly dude with a big rack of well scratched cams who acts like he owns the place, and offer up your slave services.
What do you mean ME aside? I have taught many many people how to climb and all of them are still alive. :wink:
Curt
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tradpuppy
Apr 6, 2004, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: That same poster also advised that it would be reasonable to find someone on this board to hook up with, and have that person teach them leading.
:lol:
Thanks for the laughs.
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cracklover
Apr 6, 2004, 4:52 PM
Post #38 of 46
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In reply to: In the states, for most people, it is not economically possible to pay someone to teach you how to rock climb. The most you can hope for from a guide service intro course, is to learn enough to evaluate the safety practices of random climbing partners/mentors. Whoever you end up climbing with is going to have a lot more practical impact on your habits then any number of courses. So guide courses can be useful, but finding a good mentor/partner is a lot more important and useful in the long run.
This bears repeating. If you can afford it, get your fundamentals ironed out under the wing of a certified guide. This will give you a solid foundation, nothing more. Then get out there, find the best mentors you can, and climb... a lot.
Oh, and be a voracious reader (books, not the net).
IMO, a certified guide and books for your fundamentals, and lots of climbing with the best climbers you can get your hands on: that's the recipe for becoming a strong, safe climber.
I won't comment on the club scene, except that it's a good way to make contacts.
GO
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 5:17 PM
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cracklover
Apr 6, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: Which comes back to the original point in my original post: "But it does bring up the reasonable question: How could a beginner evaluate the safety of any organized program? YMCA, Scouts, clubs, etc. I realize the point of view that says do all one's learning from a commercial professional guide service, which is certainly not WRONG, but reality is that few will do so, even if we are unanimous in advising so." So, once again, from the standpoint of your contribution to the vast majority of climbers, your advice is, once again, pontificating but useless.
Ken, if you simply wish to trade jabs with Jay, please take it to PM. Otherwise, read the other posts in this thread. Several people (myself included) have given excellent answers to this question.
GO
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dirtineye
Apr 6, 2004, 5:34 PM
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YOU must be your own teacher in the end.
There are plenty of strong famous long time climbers who are about as safe as holding recess on the freeway. Just because you have done something a long time and are still alive is no guarantee that you are doing whatever in a safe way.
Here are a few things that great well known climbers I have climbed with have done: Placed only 5 pieces in 100 feet, and some of those placements were so bad it was laughable. Top belayed from a very dead tree, as in rotten and leaning, when a live one was only 4 feet away. Lowered on a 50 meter rope on a climb that took a 60 meter rope to get down on. Tied an overhand knot to join two ends and called it a water knot.
Oh yeah, BOOKS... well books are great but they sometimes contain material that becomes out dated, or they leave little but crucial details out, and sometimes thery are just plain wrong.
There are AMGA certified folks who do dumb things from time to time and live. There are AMGA guides who have a ton of experience and are great guides that do not know everything you might think they should. That said, the two AMGA certified guides I know as friends and climbing partners are certainly two of the best climbers and the safest climbers I have ever met.
But the point is, YOU need to aquire the safety knowledge and have an idea of what is safe and not safe. Anyone can screw up. Partners should check each other, even when one had 25 years of experience and the other has little or none.
Get all the info you can, from MTFOTH, Fasulo's rescue book, AMGA guides, other guides, courses and classes, good climbers, old grits, and a lot of your own experience. But in the end, you are responsible for knowing what is what and double checking your partner, just as he is doing the same for you.
So, you are quaalified to teach yourself, following the above suggestions.
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 5:50 PM
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cfnubbler
Apr 6, 2004, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: I don't think AMGA means dick.
Is this opinion based in first hand experience? I ask because you're sadly mistaken. AMGA certification means a high baseline level of technical proficiency. It does not mean that one is a neccesarily a good guide, since guiding is much, much more than mere technical skill. But is does mean that one is technically proficient in guiding situations, which are entirely different from recreational climbing.
I agree completely that not being certified does not mean one isn't an excellent guide. On the other hand I'd be willing to bet you'd fail the rock guide (and probably even the rock instructor) exam first try. The level of professionalism and proficiency required on the exams is very high. Your amateurish website doesn't bode well for your approach to professionalism. Was this season in Zion your first guiding?
In reply to: I now own a guiding service, and have several certifications from companies within the region, but have no AMGA certifications. Does that mean I should not be guiding?
I don't know. I've never seen you guide. But those "certifications from companies within the region" are certainly no more (and probably far less) meaningful than AMGA certification.
In reply to: I would have to say that the many people I have taken on trips and taught would say I should be guiding and the experienced people I climb with and have climbed with would agree.
The problem with this statement is that the vast majority of clients are not capable of assessing your guiding proficiency. You could have been endangering them all day and they would never know the difference. And your recreational climbing partners probably aren't qualified to assess your guiding either. Guiding is an entirely different skill set.
A final question: your website offers guided climbing in the Gunks. Are you permitted to guide in the preserve or do you operate on someone else's permit? I'm curious because otherwise guiding in most of the Gunks is illegal. Which would be rather unprofessional.
-Nubbler
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scottcody
Apr 6, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: I don't think AMGA means dick.
Ummm yeah... have you ever taken one of their courses?
I'll happily conceed and agree with you that the certification doesn't make the person. The same can be said of any certification process, MCSE, College degrees, etc, etc.
But I'll tell you what, when I go to have house desgined, I am going to have an AIA accredited architect do it, and when I bulid my bada$$ 100ft climbing wall with the 30ft roof, It will be a licensed engineer that signs off on the drawings.
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hikerken
Apr 6, 2004, 6:56 PM
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I have decided to delete my posts that got off topic, and involved in debate. It was not my intention to get drawn into that. I think that it is an important enough topic that it deserves that respect.
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jt512
Apr 6, 2004, 8:40 PM
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In reply to: I have decided to delete my posts that got off topic, and involved in debate. It was not my intention to get drawn into that. I think that it is an important enough topic that it deserves that respect.
Probably a wise move on your part.
In your first post you wrote:In reply to: In a recent discussion in which I was a part, a poster felt that a particular person who was a AMGA certified top-rope site manager, who routinely climbs 11's, Trad climbs nearly every weekend, and who teaches climbing as a living, was not "qualified" to teach lead climbing.
Here's an irony for you: I had dinner last night with the woman you claim to describe in the paragraph above. She has an account on this website and, as it happened, read your post just yesterday. Do you know what she said to me about it, unprompted? That based on your description, she would not consider that person qualified to teach lead climbing. She was unaware that you were attempting to describe her, which is not the least bit surprising, since your description is wholly inaccurate. I am posting this with her permission, by the way.
In reply to: I find my self with exactly the opposite view....that the person in the first paragraph is very qualified...
It might further interest you to know that the person you supposedly are describing does not yet consider herself qualified to teach lead climbing beyond the rudimentary gym and sport climbing level. She is training and working actively to increase her lead climbing skills, and I have little doubt that she'll become an accomplished teacher and guide, but she still considers herself to be in training.
So, no, just because someone is a certified toprope site instructor does not automatically make them a qualified lead climbing instructor. One would think that that would have gone without saying, but you've persistently argued otherwise.
-Jay
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