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tenn_dawg
May 4, 2004, 4:37 PM
Post #26 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: He states that people should clip with the gate towards the direction of travel because of this draw rotation problem which can turn the gate up. I guess what the real question is, what happens to the draw in a fall situation does it drop or does it stay in the same position? Are either you or your friend aware of a phenomena on Earth known as gravity? :( But what the heck, let's assume there was no such thing as gravity, and the draw stayed fixed in a horizontal position with the gate facing downward. If the climber fell--well I guess we'll have to assume the draw is the only anti-gravity object in this scene--and the rope pulled down on the gate, what would happen? Assuming no obstruction near the draw, when the rope started to pull ever so slightly on the gate of the draw, the draw would start rotating downward. The draw would continue to rotate downward around the bolt until the gate was no longer horizontal and it was angled downward. Then, at some point, the climber pulling on the rope would cause it to slide down the angled gate into the bottom of the biner, and subsequently the full impact of the climber would hit the draw.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to illustrate here, but here's something to consider with the bottom draw.
I'm still up in the air about how it should be oriented, but bear with me for a second while I explain two reasons to orient it differently.
First situation: Overhung Sport route, the bottom draw will never contact the rock.
--In This situation you would want the BOTTOM biner's gate facing away from the direction of travel. This will keep the rope off of it and ensure a bit of extra security. This is more critical with bent gates and wire gates because of the nature of them being , "hangier" but really, if the route is overhung there is no way for the rope to get behind the gate anyway.
So, overhung sport route, you're pretty safe with however you have the bottom draw oriented, though the priority is to have the gate away from the direction of travel.
Second situation: Slabby sport route
--Here is an interesting concept. In this situation, if the gate is facing away from the direction of travel, and the quick draw is pulled to that side, imagine a fall. The rope will come tight at an angle, and drag the quickdraw across the rock to a straight down position as the fall completes, right?
Now, if the gate is facing away from the direction of travel, this dragging across the rock can force it open. Do you see?
Try to visualize it, With the bottom gate facing down, and the rotation going down, the rock will be pushing up on the gate.
It's hard to picture at first...
Anyway, this will subject your lower biner to an open gate fall in the worst case senario, or the rope may jump out of the open gate (pretty unlikely in my opinion) But the open gate factor is one to consider. If a knob in the rock forces the gate open at the last moment... Well y'all know how that goes.
Now, it's decision time for the climber. (which is what it always comes down to anyway)
Look at the bolt and the rock under it. Are there any protrusions the gate could hang on? If the climb traverses away, you may want to have the lower gate facing toward your direction of travel to prevent the levering action described above.
If there is not, then you might want to use the common knowledge of letting the rope run over the spine and having the gate facing away from travel.
Is the route slabby or overhung? I've found that dead vertical routes have the highest chance of the top biner becoming hung up as described in a previous post.
Take all this into account, and think about it for a moment before you slap that draw on the bolt. It matters.
And that my friends is probably more than you ever wanted to know about placing draws on a sport route. Sorry I sucked all the fun out of clip and go.
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tenn_dawg
May 4, 2004, 4:42 PM
Post #27 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: A jerky or dynamic move was made that flipped the draw up on the hangar, the gate was resting against the actual bolt its self when the fall occured, with the quick draw hanging up side down in the hanger. The QD unclipped with practically no effort what-so-ever, and the climber hung on for the big ride. You mean the top biner became cross loaded in the bolt? I see your point about gate orientation toward the direction of rope pull vs. away. Away the spine of the biner is on the bolt not the gate. Makes sense. How did the biner ACTUALLY come uncliped? Did the gate break open or did it twist and unclip itself?
The gate opened on the bolt head, and a downward force slid the top biner through the hangar. The biner was totally uharmed in both situations. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself. I initially thought the top biner was not completely clipped to the bolt, but I'm sure it was because it was preplaced and had held falls.
In the belay, there was alot of slack, and the climber was making a throw. You know the kind, when all of the QD's are rattling... I've tried many times to confirm what I remember seeing by reinacting it on the ground, and this is the only feasable cause.
Try to do what I've described next time you have a low bolt. It's SO much eaiser to see than it is to explain.
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jt512
May 4, 2004, 4:46 PM
Post #28 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: He states that people should clip with the gate towards the direction of travel because of this draw rotation problem which can turn the gate up. I guess what the real question is, what happens to the draw in a fall situation does it drop or does it stay in the same position? Are either you or your friend aware of a phenomena on Earth known as gravity? :( But what the heck, let's assume there was no such thing as gravity, and the draw stayed fixed in a horizontal position with the gate facing downward. If the climber fell--well I guess we'll have to assume the draw is the only anti-gravity object in this scene--and the rope pulled down on the gate, what would happen? Assuming no obstruction near the draw, when the rope started to pull ever so slightly on the gate of the draw, the draw would start rotating downward. The draw would continue to rotate downward around the bolt until the gate was no longer horizontal and it was angled downward. Then, at some point, the climber pulling on the rope would cause it to slide down the angled gate into the bottom of the biner, and subsequently the full impact of the climber would hit the draw.
Tenn_dawg is speaking from experience, and as usual, Betsy is uninformed, and alas, is wrong again.
The problem, as tenn_dawg has patiently explained, and Betsy has apparently failed to comprehend, is that the movement of the rope as the climber climbs pulls the draw up, rotating it, and the biner can become stuck horizontally in the hanger. If the climber then falls, the biner will be cross-loaded. If the biner was placed with its gate facing the direction of travel, then the gate will be through the hanger and can easily open and unclip. If, on the other hand, the biner was placed with its gate away from the direction of travel, then it would be the biner's spine that would be in the hanger. The biner will still be cross-loaded in a fall, and could well break, but at least your odds are better.
You can see the rotation of the draw we are talking about any day at the gym or sport crag. The biner getting pulled into the bolt is unusual, but does occasionally happen. If you happen to be a SoCal local, take a look through the recently published guidebook to the Santa Monica Mountains. There is a picture of Diana Jew with her draws set up in the way Tenn and I are recommending against. Her top draw has gotten pulled into the position we are warning about, with the gate stuck in the hanger.
-Jay
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beesty511
May 4, 2004, 5:55 PM
Post #29 of 32
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In reply to: In Tenn_Dawg last picture, the bottom clipped draw is showing what this post is concerning. If you look at the draw and the bottom biner...
lol. As usual jt512, your posts lack substance, and are argumentative and mean spirited.
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timstich
May 4, 2004, 6:23 PM
Post #30 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: In Tenn_Dawg last picture, the bottom clipped draw is showing what this post is concerning. If you look at the draw and the bottom biner... lol. As usual jt512, your posts lack substance, and are argumentative and mean spirited.
At least quote the right meanie for your meanie example. Sheesh.
Thanks jt and ten_dawg for the heads up. You may be mean JT, but I somehow feel safer. Maybe that's more important than being the nicest meanie.
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sowr
Jan 2, 2006, 10:09 PM
Post #31 of 32
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Registered: Mar 14, 2004
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I'm hoping that the single non-locking oval 'biner above the climber is
a) made out of steel
b) not intended to hold a fall
c) not being used as an anchor
If none of the above, please replace with something a little more substantial for example:
a) 2 oval 'biners with gate direction opposed
b) Locking main D 'biner
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jakedatc
Jan 2, 2006, 11:07 PM
Post #32 of 32
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
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holy 2 year old bump with silly concerns..
after looking at your profile.. you know better.. T0
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