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dingus
May 10, 2004, 6:20 PM
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Sport climbers, do you really care? Enough to research every route you climb? Do you care about all the route names? Who did the FA?
I maintain that most sport climbers, the averge joes out there, do not care very much if at all. Yes, they might care at their home crag or something, where they are actively involved and know the relevant parties. But just like with a gym, at a new sport area we will be most interested in rating and quality. Everything else is a big 'who cares?'
What say you Sport Climber?
DMT
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brianinslc
May 10, 2004, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: Sport climbers, do you really care? Enough to research every route you climb? Do you care about all the route names? Who did the FA? I maintain that most sport climbers, the averge joes out there, do not care very much if at all. Yes, they might care at their home crag or something, where they are actively involved and know the relevant parties. But just like with a gym, at a new sport area we will be most interested in rating and quality. Everything else is a big 'who cares?' What say you Sport Climber?
The sports climber in me wants to know. Some folks got it, some don't. I likes to know who did the FA. Plus, some route names have a nice story behind them...which makes for fun 'round the campfire fodder...
Brian in SLC
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caughtinside
May 10, 2004, 6:30 PM
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As a rule, I don't care. There have been a few thread suggesting that people want to know if the bolter knows what they're doing, to ascertain the safety of the bolts. I think that's a bit silly, you'll end up having to do a ton of research to decide what? That you will or will not do the climb?
But I like to flip through FA sections in guidebooks, see the who and the when of the climb. Most of the time, the names don't mean anything to me, but I do find it interesting to see who has been active in an area.
I guess if I have a few free minutes and the info is there, I'll give it a glance. But it's not going to determine anything, such as whether or not I'll go to an area, or do a particular climb. I like climbing.
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craig_climber
May 10, 2004, 6:31 PM
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Although I don't climb sport, I don't think I'd be interested in set the bolts. I'd be more interested in how safe they are. :shock:
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rrrADAM
May 10, 2004, 6:33 PM
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The Sport Climber in me doesn't care who put up the bolts I clip, or even who FA'd the route.
However, the Trad Climber in me does care who FA'd the really good Trad routes I've done.
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thun
May 10, 2004, 6:35 PM
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way to overgeneralize and stereotype. nothing better to do on a monday than troll around? :roll:
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caughtinside
May 10, 2004, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: Although I don't climb sport, I don't think I'd be interested in set the bolts. I'd be more interested in how safe they are. :shock:
How do you propose to find out how safe bolts are?
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cfnubbler
May 10, 2004, 6:38 PM
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I grew up climbing in areas where the guidebooks have by tradition included lots of historical information (the Adirondacks and the Whites). I guess that sort of colored my perspective on this question, since I do like to know who did FAs and any interesting route history, even on sport routes.
Case in point, there's a three star sport route at Sundown in NH called Eyeless in Gaza that was among my first "hard" routes (not so hard by modern standards!), and my enjoyment of it was definitely increased by knowing the interesting history of the route. Two climbers spent a bunch of time trying it from the ground up, pounding in a pin at a crux, pushing higher, and repeatedly pitching. They'd then lower each other to the ground, switch off, and regain the pin, everytime finding it had shifted considerably and needed to be re-driven! The consequences of that pin pulling were not pretty, to say the least! After sometime working the route, they can back to find another climber had bolted it and bagged the FA!
-Nubbler
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killclimbz
May 10, 2004, 6:42 PM
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I was going to start this off with I don't really care who put up the route, sport or trad. Then I realized that a lot of sport routes I do take note as to who the person is that bolted it. There are a lot of routes I do because the person that bolted it has bolted other routes I enjoy I am more likely to give it try. Same thing goes for people who do a crappy job bolting. I tend to skip by other routes that person has done.
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crimpandgo
May 10, 2004, 6:46 PM
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I dont generally care who the FA was.... Unless I know someone in the area is known for sandbaggin routes they set up. Then I might pay attention because I am less likely to trust the grade level they attach to it. :x
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yanqui
May 10, 2004, 7:43 PM
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Here's a little story that relates. Let's take the first time I ever went sport climbing in Red Rocks. It was with my wife about 6 years ago. Since we'd never been in the area before, we bought a guidebook and started from there. We had a few weeks to enjoy, so we started out easy and worked our way slowly into some 5.11s and 5.12s (you can see how I'm thinking already).
So for awhile we climbed some 5.8s, 5.9s and easy 5.10s (and this is how we defined and chose the routes). After a couple of days we started with harder 10s and an 11a or so. Then we finally got into some harder 11s and 12s. What's interesting is that these numbers, plus some advice from the guidebook, plus the availabilty of various climbs in close vicinity basically governed our route selection.
But one pattern stood out: there were certain routes where the grade struck me as pretty solid (in general the grades seemed pretty soft) and the quality of those routes stood out as particularly nice. And this pattern started matching up with the names of the people who placed the bolts. So indeed, in this case, by checking who placed the bolts we began to obtain another guide into both the difficulty and quality of the routes. So I guess it did kind of help, and was kind of interesting, that those names where there.
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sarcat
May 10, 2004, 7:52 PM
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Troll? If not I'd say most climbs I enjoy seem to have a method to why the bolts are place where they are.
The few routes I've put up I would TR first and mark with a sharpie the logical place for a bolt. I hope that's alright with you sir.
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ullr
May 10, 2004, 10:33 PM
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I pay attention to who puts up routes in Sedona, AZ. It is quite relevant there. I like to repeat a particular active first ascentionists routes because he makes them fun, and usually safe by Sedona standards. Some of the old school routes can be a bit sketch.
These aren't sport routes, they are multi pitch, sandstone, mostly trad routes. So picking a good-clean route can be the difference between a fun day and an epic.
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mtengaio
May 14, 2004, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: I was going to start this off with I don't really care who put up the route, sport or trad. Then I realized that a lot of sport routes I do take note as to who the person is that bolted it. There are a lot of routes I do because the person that bolted it has bolted other routes I enjoy I am more likely to give it try. Same thing goes for people who do a crappy job bolting. I tend to skip by other routes that person has done.
I have to agree on this one. I've noticed on road trips where time is critical, that I tend to seek out and project routes of the same FA's name on them. Meaning that most of their lines are good and well thought out. Red Rocks for example – Leo Henson has numerous quality lines down there. Maple Canyon – Bill Boyle's routes are fun and safe. It just depends on your preference of style too I guess.
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asandh
May 14, 2004, 6:26 PM
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:)
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dingus
May 14, 2004, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: If you don't want to pay homage to the person who spent all that time and money putting up a route for you to enjoy, you have no business climbing his route.
What if it he was a she?
Pay homage eh? Hmmm, I gotta think about that a bit.
Cheers
DMT
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asandh
May 14, 2004, 6:52 PM
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:)
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honeyhiker
May 15, 2004, 10:27 PM
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Just my 2 cents worth...A LOT of time, money and sweat goes into putting up sport routes which are then climbed for free. I've helped put up a few routes and do upkeep on older routes and trails. Its a lot of fun but hard work and personally I put a lot of credit into who put up routes I climb (and give them a lot of credit). Its a safety and trust issue for me. Bolting is more complicated than I'm sure many people realize. The quality of the bolts, their placement for consistency, rope run and safety are all factored in, things it sounds like some take for granted.
And by the way, I'm a girl and just finished my first route. :D
Chris
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tradbum
May 16, 2004, 12:14 AM
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"honeyhiker"
Nope, there's no indication in there that you're a girl, but good for you for what you've done. :D
I'm a crusty old fart, but for what it's worth, I think that FA's do deserve credit. They did it first. It's our collective maintenance and remembering history, not just of climbing, that adds to the whole experience. And helps us teach kids how the whole thing evolved.
For several years I've been trying to find the FA's at my local crag with no luck, so we could rebolt the manky stuff that's there. Even our resident 54 year-old hard man, who free solos a lot of it doesn't know, and he's been climbing there for 20+ years.
So we've asked for help from the ASCA to sponsor our rebolting efforts (it's a State Park), but will always keep in mind the folks that did it first even if no one knows who they are/were..
Smitty
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honeyhiker
May 16, 2004, 12:32 AM
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I always forget about that girly nicname, been using it for so long. :D
That's a shame that there's no info on the FA's at your crag. One good thing about putting up good routes is that more people will climb which increases support for the sport and tada, money. Well, we can only hope. That's going to be an expensive project rebolting all those routes at basically the same time. There's always that parking pass thing.
I love reading to see who did the FA. I saw Alex Lowe as having done one at the Gunks which was cool. Makes you want to run on over and give it a whirl. I've always been amazed at what climbers accomplished before all this fancy gear was developed. Learning from the ole school of hard rocks, I mean knocks...
Chris
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mtengaio
May 17, 2004, 7:52 PM
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FA's are pretty cool to see in guidebooks, but what I think what would be even cooler is to have who bolted the line. The media talks about Sharma flashing this, Graham redpointing that and you know that they didn't equip those routes. It would be interesting to know who it was that had a keen eye for classic sport lines.
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honeyhiker
May 17, 2004, 8:41 PM
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Generally its assumed the FA is the same person who bolted the line. You maybe top rope it, work it, bolt it, clean it, and do the FA unless some jerk (not my first choice of words) jumps on and does it. He/she doesn't deserve any recognition in that case IMO anyway, other than a few bloody bruises. :twisted: I think in practice there's often 2 people involved putting up a new route and its a shame one gets left out. Personally, I'm the grunt in the background busting my butt cleaning while my boyfriend bolts and does the FA. Its still extremely rewarding and fun though. I finally got one of my own though which is awesome.
I think its a talent for having an eye for a classic route and making it run well and safely. Certain people seem to put up the best climbs and I'm always checking for the FA.
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reno
May 17, 2004, 9:14 PM
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The only time I really get curious about who placed bolts is when I find the bolting to be sub-par.
Some routes I've climbed have been bolted by a 5.12 climber. Those routes, while perhaps at the 5.8 range, are not bolted for a 5.8 climber. IOW, the route setter doesn't bolt to the grade, but to his/her ability. I don't care for that. Other route setters do a fine job of bolting to the grade: They place a bolt on a 5.9 climb where a 5.9 climber would want a bolt, not where the 5.12 FA'er would want a bolt.
So if the route is poorly done, I am curious who did it, and I keep that in mind as I do other routes. If it's well done, I may look to see who did a fine job, but it's not as much a priority.
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chossmonkey
May 17, 2004, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: Sport climbers, do you really care? Enough to research every route you climb? Do you care about all the route names? Who did the FA? I maintain that most sport climbers, the averge joes out there, do not care very much if at all. Yes, they might care at their home crag or something, where they are actively involved and know the relevant parties. But just like with a gym, at a new sport area we will be most interested in rating and quality. Everything else is a big 'who cares?' What say you Sport Climber? DMT
This thread is lame! :roll:
It doesn't matter whether the route is bolted or on gear. Most people are going care about who did each type of route prettymuch the same. There are just as many gear route I don't give a crap about as sport routes. Just because a route is bolted doesn't mean it's a generic piece of crap. There are just as many generic piece of crap gear routes, if not more. To me it's not whether a route is sport or trad that makes it memorable. It is the challenge met on the route. Whether mental or physical.
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dingus
May 18, 2004, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: Most people are going care about who did each type of route prettymuch the same.
Lame or not, that statement is not consistent with the responses to this thread.
No way on earth do MOST sport climbers care who placed the bolts.
No
Freakin
Way
DMT
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timstich
May 18, 2004, 2:40 AM
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Well, we cared about it in as far as it was an indication of the route quality. If we heard a route was put up by so-and-so, then we might anticipate it being good more than another route. But the rad name sells the route the best. Really, isn't a route called "Twighlight's Last Gleaming" going to be tons cooler than "Center Route?" Heh. Who wouldn't want to climb "White Rabbit?"
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honeyhiker
May 18, 2004, 2:43 AM
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I agree there. People in general just take it all for granted. They are there to have a good time and climb. Only a few think beyond that.
I do take exception to the lame comment. But to each his own, we're all interested in different things. How boring if we weren't.
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honeyhiker
May 18, 2004, 2:48 AM
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I think route names are so much fun too. The New has some of the best names. It makes you wonder what sort of character put up route. :lol:
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catbiter
May 18, 2004, 2:59 AM
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First, check for rust. Then look in the back of the book. Say outloud who did the first assent and when it was done. Make sure everyone around you has heard you. It's like pouring out the last of your beer for your "homies".
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tradbum
May 20, 2004, 3:24 AM
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I'll agree with Dingus in that most sport climbers don't give a crap about who put up the route. They only care about the manky crap when they get to the bottom and say "man, that needs to be rebolted", then off to another route. Yet nothing is done about it (as I alluded to in my first response - my bad for not just fixing it...)
It's always been important to me, for the history and what we pass down to our kids, to give credit. Video games, SUV's, 3rd mortgages, etc., it's all so easy nowadays, and it's easy to forget who did what.
If you need a reminder, Sport Climber, (and I'm guilty of that at times as well), go climb (GLENN) Exum's ridge on the Grand Teton.
In reply to: In 1931 at the age of 18, Exum explored and made the first ascent of the south ridge on the Grand Teton that was named in his honor. He was alone and unroped, wearing a pair of borrowed leather cleated football shoes. His account of his famous leap is legendary. At the terrifyingly exposed gap at the end of Wall Street (the key pitch to gain the crest of the ridge), Exum could see no way to climb across. "I walked away from the Exum Ridge seven times until I finally got up there and saw these little handholds and the boulder on the ridge. When you get to the eastern extremity of Wall Street why there isn't any place to jump from," Exum said. "So I climbed as high as I could, until I was sort of secure, and jumped from a standing start." Committed then to the ridge (it was impossible to climb down what he had just jumped across), Glenn completed the climb to the summit. That day in the summit register Exum wrote that the route traversed "the thousand thicknesses of hell." Now the Exum Ridge is the most popular route on the mountain.
So much for bolts eh?
My Dad climbed the Exum Ridge when he was 16, as did I, but he was born in 1938. And he thinks that "sport climbing" is "phooey".
I don't eschew sport climbing at all, I think it's opened the sport to folks who would otherwise never have had the opportunity, but unless anyone wants to scrap their nifty climbing shoes for what's essentially a pair of caulk boots, then (and I'm not ragging on anyone here, but) STFU and give credit where it's due, lest you do it yourself.
And to this point:
In reply to: The only time I really get curious about who placed bolts is when I find the bolting to be sub-par...the route setter doesn't bolt to the grade, but to his/her ability. I don't care for that. Other route setters do a fine job of bolting to the grade: They place a bolt on a 5.9 climb where a 5.9 climber would want a bolt, not where the 5.12 FA'er would want a bolt
How is the bolting sub-par? If it sihtty bolting, then it's a valid point and should be addressed. If it's bolted in a way that knocks the climb out of your level of ability, then do you blame the FA bolter or you, because it's "inconvenient"? Find the FA and ask if you can add a bolt to make it safer. Most wouldn't find it a problem, as all they have to do is skip your new bolt. Anyone who does may have an arrogance issue, but why would a 5.12 climber have a problem with adding to a 5.9?
My 2
Take care & climb safe,
Smitty
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gavin
May 26, 2004, 6:12 AM
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I'm interested in who placed the bolts of routes I'm climbing. Information on the history of a crag is good, not only to read on rest days or when its raining but also to see whos putting in all the hard work & get a feel for who puts up good routes & who's I'd rather not climb.
Having placed many bolts myself, often the name of the route means a lot more than "Something that sounds cool".
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