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tallnik
May 14, 2004, 2:03 PM
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So I stumbled upon a little quickdraw controversy here in Austria. People stack their biners either opposing or both the same way. Everyone I climbed with in Canada used the opposing technique, but people here get very up in arms about this technique and insist it's deadly.
What's the good word?
Cheers,
Nik
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voriand
May 14, 2004, 2:05 PM
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Personal preference.
Just make sure the bottom gate is facing opposite to the direction of the rope line.
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sarcat
May 14, 2004, 2:18 PM
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There was a post not to long ago on this. The conclusion I came up with is:
voriand is right. ALSO make sure that as you climb the TOP biner gate does not 'rest' in the bolt. You want the spine in the bolt. If you were to fall with the gate in the bolt and it were to stick there the draw wouldn't hold you. If you put them the same way this is less likely to happen.
Last week I changed all mine from opposed to same way. Most manufacturers sell them same way now also.
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kimmyt
May 14, 2004, 2:23 PM
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In reply to: Just make sure the bottom gate is facing opposite to the direction of the rope line.
Could you explain this better, please? I just started sport climbing recently and am trying to visualize what you mean but am having difficulties.
K.
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moss1956
May 14, 2004, 2:31 PM
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You look up, if you see that the route goes to the right of the bolt, you hang the quickdraw so that the gate you clip the rope into faces left. The reason is that when you fall you don't want to get the gate involved with the rope attached to you.
If you see that the route goes to the left, hang the quickdraw so that the rope clipping gate faces right.
Hope that helps. There is a description of this on the Petzl website, and also with any Petzl biners you buy.
There is a saying: God looks after fools and small children.
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pettsnjam
May 14, 2004, 2:40 PM
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I thought that Black Diamond tested this and found that the spin of the biners on the same side was stonger but you have to ask you self the question what is going to break first the bolt, the hanger, the rope or your draw.
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kimmyt
May 14, 2004, 2:41 PM
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Thanks, moss, that helped me alot.
K.
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tallnik
May 14, 2004, 2:58 PM
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The austrians (Austrian Alpine Guide Association) I speak of where concerned with A) the draw flipping across the bolt, and then coming out by the top biner. Can happen if you don't do what Moss mentioned... However, something that wasn't mentioned is that if your draw flips, then you're backclipped, and you can uber easily pop-out from your draw. Never happened to me, but I figured it out one day when I looked at what would happen if your gate was involved directly in contact with your falling rope.
B) Bolts are usually placed to be clipped from one side or the other, and this must be kept in mind with what moss said again. You need to keep the gate away from the action.
That's all I can decipher from the german
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djnibs
May 19, 2004, 12:58 AM
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i find that it depends on the climb and how the bolts are... sometimes i need the biners facing the same way, others opposing. i have all mine racked facing the same way, and if i need to, i just turn the biner so it faces the other way... its just so much easier than mixing than.... i still say personal preference
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rocdaug
May 19, 2004, 1:10 AM
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another vote for personal preference.
the main concern is that the draw is placed in such a way that there is no chance the rope could come out as in the case of a backclip, or gate pried open by a rock or other obstruction.
seen it both ways. I have mine set same direction. bent gate (if your draw has a bent gate 'biner) for the rope.
rd
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coclimber26
May 19, 2004, 1:19 AM
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personal preference...I put mine oposite. If I clip a bolt on my right side then the rope usually runs the right direction of the route and viseversa...
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jookyhead
May 19, 2004, 2:35 AM
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I don;t know why, but I've always had mine facing the same why, but like others have said, it's personal preference.
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wc
May 19, 2004, 3:31 AM
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In reply to: Personal preference. Just make sure the bottom gate is facing opposite to the direction of the rope line.
having the bottom gate facing opposite the direction of the rope line means they should both face the same way! try it, look at the way the gate lays against the hanger with the "bolt gate" faces the rope line and the "rope gate" faces opposite the rope line. I don't like to climb on draws with opposite gates, it just ain't right!
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tech_dog
May 19, 2004, 3:45 AM
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It also depends on the biners you use.
I use modified D shaped biners on the bolt side, and always leave both biners facing the same way. That way the bolt side biner will set with the corner of the ungated side on the hanger, assuming the rope side biner is turned the right way when when it's clipped to the rope.
This also assumes you go to the side of the bolt. If you climb right through it, then it probably makes no difference.
It's always bugged me that the ads always show new quickdraws with opposing biners, but it really seems that same facing should be stronger. Am I missing something?
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wc
May 19, 2004, 4:14 AM
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In reply to: always leave both biners facing the same way. That way the bolt side biner will set with the corner of the ungated side on the hanger, assuming the rope side biner is turned the right way when when it's clipped to the rope. This also assumes you go to the side of the bolt. If you climb right through it, then it probably makes no difference. It's always bugged me that the ads always show new quickdraws with opposing biners, but it really seems that same facing should be stronger. Am I missing something?
yup
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coldclimb
May 19, 2004, 4:38 AM
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I call it personal preference, but I do have a good reason for doing it my way. I have mine both the same direction, for the reasons tech_dog wrote, and I always face the gates away from the direction of travel. Takes away the chance of the rope crossing the gate, or the top biner rotating and unclipping from the bolt.
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climbingaggie03
May 19, 2004, 5:23 AM
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I like opposing, cause that's what i've always done (not that that makes it safe or anything) but most of the draws i see in the store lately are all same facing, maybe the manufacturers are trying to tell us something.
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mtman
May 19, 2004, 7:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Personal preference. Just make sure the bottom gate is facing opposite to the direction of the rope line. having the bottom gate facing opposite the direction of the rope line means they should both face the same way! try it, look at the way the gate lays against the hanger with the "bolt gate" faces the rope line and the "rope gate" faces opposite the rope line. I don't like to climb on draws with opposite gates, it just ain't right!
i don't see why it matters which way the "bolt gate" is facing, i could be missing somthing, but all i would think that matters is that the "rope gate" direction.
if i am missing somthing will somone explain it
mtman
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hema
May 19, 2004, 9:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I like opposing, cause that's what i've always done (not that that makes it safe or anything) but most of the draws i see in the store lately are all same facing, maybe the manufacturers are trying to tell us something. Funny thing there though. I've seen them fresh on the shelves in both orientations, so I guess the companies are as confused as everyone. :?
That might be true, but atleast where I live the shops sometimes get the biners and slings separate and then have make the QD onsite.
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beesty511
May 19, 2004, 9:44 AM
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In reply to: i don't see why it matters which way the "bolt gate" is facing, i could be missing somthing, but all i would think that matters is that the "rope gate" direction. if i am missing somthing will somone explain it mtman
Because of the bolt head protruding out of the hanger. The protruding bolt head is on one side of the hanger, and if the gate of the top biner of the draw is on the same side as the bolt, as the climber moves upward, the rope can rotate the draw around the hanger until the gate of the top biner presses on the head of the bolt, and the draw can potentially unclip.
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skiorclimb
May 19, 2004, 10:08 AM
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OK let me try.
Facing the same way is safer because the rope can, and often does, pull
up the draw. This causes the draw to rotate at the hanger. When the gates are opposite when that top biner rotates it can end up resting on the gate, cross gate is a weak orientation for any biner. If you face both biners in the same direction it would instead rest on the spine, plenty strong.
This next part is mostly speculation:
I belive that not many people gave much thought to this until relitively recently(hell sport climbings prety new). So people mostly set up draws opposed, it really is more enjoyable cliping that way. Now people have given it some thought, and found that facing the same way is indeed a safer practice.
Lastly I think that the odds that it would have any efect on holding a fall is very miniscule. This isn't at all like backclipping, if I was on a route and I was wrong about wich way it climbed past the next bolt, I would not bother reorienting the draw. If I somehow backclipped, well you bet I would fix that!
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sarcat
May 19, 2004, 1:50 PM
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After 9 years of draws the opp. way I switched mine to same because of the "top biner gate on bolt twist thing during a fall issue". The hard part is getting used to clipping away from direction of travel instead of toward. I've seen plenty of top biners resting in the hanger right near the gate and never thought of it till recently.
If it's .02% safer then I'll adjust. No reason not to.
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climberfille
May 26, 2004, 5:24 AM
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Same way makes sense to me, however I do have one question. Does this mean that the bolt on a route should also be placed in a certain direction?
If you are climbing up a route and the bolt is placed with bolt to the left and you clip it correctly with a same facing QD am I correct to think that I should be climbing to the left?
I don't bolt routes, so I really am curious.
Thanks.
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skiorclimb
May 26, 2004, 9:33 AM
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Climberfille,
You are correct in thinking that the bolts should be placed with clipping in mind. Idealy a little to the side of where the route is intended to go. However due to the vast number of route developers of all diferent ability levels you really can't count on bolts being placed in the best location.
The best thing to do is guess at wich way the route goes than clip the bolt so the spine of both biners will face that direction. Like I said earlier I would not worry to much if you find that you guesed wrong and now the rope is touching the gate. Sometimes you will leave your clipping stance climbing left than traverse right, so that at some point it will be wrong no matter wich way you clip it.
Scott
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