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markc
Jun 14, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: A high-level sport climber that has never climbed trad is far more likely to climb a hard traditional route than a climber who has placed gear all his life but never climbed hard.
While that may be the case, it can be a lot more dangerous when the sport climber falls. I've seen unfortunate accident threads here and elsewhere demonstrating the results when sport climbers jump into the traditional game without sufficient placement practice. In traditional climbing, the climbing is only half the game.
I carry a wide variety of pro (yes, even hexes) and use the proper protection for the proper placements. From the comfort of my desk I can think of placements where a nut would be faster than a cam (as well as more secure). Maybe there aren't many, but they do exist.
Just a thought,
mark
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rjavery10
Jun 23, 2004, 10:44 AM
Post #27 of 37
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incogneato,
You really need to get out and climb some Trad. Trad climbing is half climbing and half good placement.
You have to place well or you get hurt or die. Plain and simple. I have seen waaay to many times when people are unwrapping fresh trad gear on a climb at J Tree and just throwing in cams and crapping their pants 4 feet above their last placement. Or worse placing bad gear and pulling it on a fall.
Good climbing is important, but good placements are better. If we all didn't fall from time to time, we would all be out there soloing and ropes and pro would be pointless.
Most Trad climbers I know also push hard on sport anyway. Myself included.
I once saw a bumper sticker that read, "Trad climbers do it with good placement"
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billiebob
Jun 23, 2004, 1:01 PM
Post #28 of 37
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As stated several times already: People who are interested in climbing fast prefer aliens to nuts. They fit in many of the same placements. Nuts may be quick to place, but are just too hard to remove in many cases to justify using them. If you spend 40 minutes a pitch, go ahead and wiggle those wires in, if you spend 15 minutes a pitch, you won't bother with nuts unless they protect a crux. Haven't we all cursed our seconds for spending 10 minutes on a nut that we should have been brave enough not to put in anyway?
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tradklime
Jun 23, 2004, 1:37 PM
Post #29 of 37
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Holy crap am I sorry I bothered to read this, and I'm sure I'll be sorry I responded.
A broad statement like cams are faster to place and REMOVE than nuts cannot be supported. If you know how to assess placements they can be placed in equal time, depending of course on what you have- sometimes faster sometimes slower. Also, I have removed countless nuts by one quick upward jerk, with hardly a pause in climbing. Sometimes, I've had to stop and really assess a small cam placement to see how it was threaded into place.
Whatever!
To answere the origninal post... it depends on the route. Echo echo echo Indian Creek. But in most climbing areas having a mixture of active and passive will serve you best.
People do all kinds of silly things, like limiting their tools uneccessarily. I only use cams, I only use passive pro. People just learning to place pro should only use passive. Cams are easy to plug and go. Blah blah blah
Bullsh*t!!!
rant over
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xclimber
Jun 23, 2004, 2:30 PM
Post #30 of 37
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In reply to: Holy crap am I sorry I bothered to read this, and I'm sure I'll be sorry I responded. A broad statement like cams are faster to place and REMOVE than nuts cannot be supported.
Ahhhh..... a voice cries out in the wilderness (and it's the voice of SANITY...!)
X
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highangle
Jul 1, 2004, 2:57 AM
Post #31 of 37
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Wow, I can't believe some of the comments.
Climb on ALL nuts for a little bit, and you will learn quickly how to place and clean them properly. With experience, nuts can place and clean as fast, OR FASTER, than cams.
I started climbing before cams were popular, or readily available (anybody else remember when flexible shafts were NEW), and I bought my rack 1 nut at a time. I wouldn't trade the experience of learning trad w/o cams for all the active gear in the world.
That said cams are great, and I wouldn't give up my Aliens for anything. They are used when appropriate, not just cause they are easy.
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philbox
Moderator
Jul 1, 2004, 3:07 AM
Post #32 of 37
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I love my cams for sure. Just for a change every now and then I will deliberately have a national passive pro day where I will leave the cams on the ground and in the pack. This of course occurs at my fav crack climbing destination. So it`s HB offset nuts, wallnuts and hexes. Heaps more fun than just slamming in cams clipping and going. I love gear and this gives me a chance to fondle the gear lovingly as I place it.
Other times I`ll just take the cams up. Usually I will take my offset nuts with me when I load up with my cams. Of course what I take is very crag dependant.
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dgkula
Jul 2, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #33 of 37
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Registered: May 6, 2004
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In reply to: national passive pro day
I like the idea 8^)
I carry a full set of WC Tech Friends, 1.5 sets Metloius curve nuts, BD hexes and the three smallest Tricams.
Passive gear rocks for anchors. Nothing like a bomber hex, #5 curve nut and Tricam.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 2, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #34 of 37
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Sorry guys but you are dead wrong. i started out before cams were everyday gear and I place tons of nuts but the simple fact is that at least 60% of the time cams place and clean faster than nuts. If you dont belive me get a buddy with a stop watch to time you as you place , set and remove the gear.
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twoliter
Jul 2, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #35 of 37
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Registered: May 14, 2004
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In my small world of climbing I carry nuts up to Rock 10 and a good range of cams. There are alot of climbs out there that will not protect with just cams. Sure if I know a spacific line protects best with cams only thats all I take but most likely the climb beside it will need some nuts. As for big wall climbers, the reason the nuts are so difficult to clean is because they were bounce tested. In aid a cam is "allway" faster then a nut. In free climbing lots of times the nut can be yanked up and out in one quick motion, that is if the leader considerate or not scetched out.
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angry
Jul 2, 2004, 10:39 PM
Post #36 of 37
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Registered: Jul 22, 2003
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I learned with nuts and can place them well. In a great placement they are as fast or faster, but if you've got to wiggle and woogle the wire, it takes longer, usually in this case a cam won't fit so it's the nut or nuthin'.
I've got two friends who learned on cams, they only place cams when the have to, and it takes a while for them to figure it out.
The right tool for the job, I say.
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dirtineye
Jul 3, 2004, 3:07 PM
Post #37 of 37
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In reply to: I will pre-rack nuts independantly if I have the beta, but otherwize, no, I don't bother carrying them. In reply to: Nuts often place faster than cams. You are NOT doing it right, and you should know who you are. Tells us then, what is the right way to place nuts?
I don't really believe you deserve an answer, but on the off chance that you are not a complete nincompoop, I'll start with a few examples and see what effect this has.
First, constrictions take nuts. After you have seen enough placements, you'll know pretty much when a nut is going to be faster than a cam, but almost always, a constriction will be easier to get a nut in. Now you may not be seeing these great nut placements for a while, bacause there are many different constriction configurations. Some actually look parallel to the uninitiated. Some look like big "v" or triangle places.
Once you have some experience, you eye the potential placements, pick the one you like, take the biner of nuts that has the right one on it, usually select the right nut (experience), and slot it into the constriction and let the nut slid in and set. Like many have already said, if you do this right you can feel the nut lock in and you don't have to do much if any tugging.
Second, the idea of constrictions applies to horizontals as well, but this can be a little more tricky. You might even have to use tensioned opposition and that is not a fast thing.
Third, I'll bet there are nut placements you have not even thought of as placements, since you are so active pro oriented, but in tunnels a nut is extremely fast and will not fail unless the rock fails. You will not get a good cam placement in a tunnel situation, but you can waste a lot of time trying.
Fourth, Trapped nuts. You probably don't recognize these either. Look it up.
Fifth, the tri-cam is sometimes the best nut. For an extremely irregular placement, often a tri-cam placed as a nut is fast and solid.
Now you can say that a cam would be faster, but first, a cam will not fit at all in many of these places, and second, when you try to stick a cam where it won't go but will almost fit, you waste a LOT of time. This is often where the tri-cams shine. But, if you are all active pro, you don't even have any tri-cams and you are going to have to feck around trying to get a cam to work, and wind up with a crappy unsafe slow placement.
In reply to: In reply to: I smell a sport climber trying to trad in here somewhere.... A high-level sport climber that has never climbed trad is far more likely to climb a hard traditional route than a climber who has placed gear all his life but never climbed hard.
So you think people climbing on gear don't climb hard? Like I said before, you don't deserve an answer, but take this story to heart:
There is a climb at Lost Wall GA, Prevailing WInds (I think that's the name anyway) Shannon Steg did the FA. It's a middle 11 trad climb. This climb takes nuts about every two feet. it is a crack that is extremely irregular. A very hard climbing friend who primarily bolders and sports gave this climb a go, using the, 'throw and go', method, placing a few lousy cams and trying to keep moving. Well he fell, and had to have a full on rescue, back board and all. Thank goodness he recovered.
Now, this guy climbs sport 5.12, but he made the mistake you are making.
Get the picture now? I hope this helps you stay alive.
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