Every single person I've showed this to in person agrees that it is a better way to belay, and it makes them feel safer. It's just a bit hard to explain in writing.

Tell me what you think when you try it.

- There are 5 "gri-gri incidents" reported. (of totally 36 incidents)
- 4 of these happened while giving rope to a leader that fell unexpectedly. (3 went all the way to the deck)
- 1 is a back injury due to high impact force/falling sideways.

References? I think they're written up annually in Accidents in North American Gym Climbing. I agree with you, though. Now that you mention it, I've seen or heard of a lot accidents with grigris when the leader takes.

ANAM is useless when it comes to questions like this one.

Have you ever seen or been around when someone dropped someone with a grigri on a lead fall?

When you're feeding a clip, there is a significant amount of slack in the system. If the climber falls at that moment he typically develops significant momentum and there is no shortage of activation force to cam the grigri.

I would challenge someone to try and hold a grigri cam open in this situation with his little finger.

They don't use their little finger. That's half the problem. They have their left hand clamped on the gri-gri and their right hand on the leader's line. The leader falls, and they clamp both hands down. Their right hand (which they are used to thinking of as their brake hand) is on the wrong side of the rope and reduces the tension in the rope that would have activitated the cam. Simultaneously, their left hand is holding open the cam. The belayer gets a severe rope burn and the leader decks.

Actually, I thought you explained very well (except you kept misspelling "thumb"). I had no trouble figuring out how to do it yesterday.

I tried it yesterday. I found it a bit awkward, but that may be just because it was new to me. I had no trouble paying out rope, using my rope, which is very slick. I suspect, though, that it might be more difficult with a fatter rope, though, I admit, this is speculation.

The only drawback I see with this technique is that it is radically different from the way one belays with an ATC, whereas with the Petzl method, you are essentially belaying ATC-style 90% of the time.

Who and the hell is teaching people to belay like that?

That is idiotic, and totally contrary to the owners manual and general practice.

That's probably the most common way that the grigri is used here in SoCal -- hold the grigri open continuously with the left hand and pay out slack with the right. We have a cadre of experienced sport climbers who belay that way, and have managed not to drop anybody. Most of partners belay like that, though nobody I teach does.

-Jay

That's probably the most common way that the grigri is used here in SoCal -- hold the grigri open continuously with the left hand and pay out slack with the right. We have a cadre of experienced sport climbers who belay that way, and have managed not to drop anybody. Most of partners belay like that, though nobody I teach does.

The biggest difference is that you hold your hand close to the device and let the rope slide through it.

I have done testing with a new 10.2 mm rope, holding the rope below about 2-3 meters of slack and letting the climber fall.
The gri-gri didn't lock up before all the slack was gone.
This was a very slick rope, but it shows that you shouldn't let go off the break end. (this was done on toprope, and the dynamics are a bit different, I know)

That's wild. How do they take in rope?

I take it they don't feel it is necessary to hold the brake side of the rope at all.

Ok. I think it just felt way different. I belay "palms-up" with an ATC, so the right hand position felt very unusual for me.

It would have almost certainly locked up instantly in a lead fall. But your conclusion that "you shouldn't let go of the brake end" isn't warranted. You have to move your hand about 4 inches to get it back on the brake rope. This is actually quicker than locking off an ATC.

Petzl says to brake by pulling downward on the rope, so that it goes more-or-less over the nose of the device. Have you experimented with what happens if the belayer, using your method, fails to brake with their brake hand, and just leaves their hand in place? I wonder if the rope running back like that could prevent the device from camming, especially with a slick, thin rope.

First off, leading isn't always "leading". When sport climbing, the bolts tend to be placed high so the crux is well protected. That way you are essentially toproping parts of the hardest sequences.
Using a technique that works for only parts of a climb sounds bad.

Secondly, I believe it takes just between 1 and 2 seconds to hit the deck from 10 meters. (?) When the rope is sizzling through, it might not be where you thought it was.

Actually, I'm not pretending I can solve all your problems with this Jay.

Thank you for taking the time btw.

Instinctively locking off a grigri in this scenario isn't any more difficult then locking off an atc. Probably safer as well.

If you are referring to the "locking the gri-gri in the open positioin" method I must say you are wrong. I'm not saying YOU can't do it safely, but too many obviously can't.

Here is the summary:

- 54 incidents reported
- 5 "gri-gri incidents", 4 of these leader falls, locking the gri-gri open
- 1 threading the gri-gri the wrong way
- 0 ATC related incidents

jeeeez I can't believe nobody's said something like this yet...

as your climber gets near to where they'll be clipping, nudge the rope into the gri-gri a little bit at a time... (it'll feed and you won't have to take your brake hand off) taking small steps back as you go so as not to leave a sagging loop. When they grab to rope to yank it for the clip, take a couple big steps forward, thus giving them instant slack, without ever haveing to take your brake hand off. I've been doing this for years and it works fine.

Sometimes I do have to squeeze it with my right hand to feed it out, but hardly ever.

CLIMB SMART!


PEACE

If you use the pinky method there is nothing to "clamp down on." As long as you do not disable the camming device, it is going to lock in a fall, regardless of whether you get your hand back on the rope.

Is the grigri the problem or is it the people using the grigri.
People that have been climbing for a long time are more likely to use an atc. Beginners are more likely to misuse a grigri.

When you are feeding a clip with an atc, you have to lock it off in the event of a sudden fall. (change hand position)

As far as changing techniques in light of begginer mistakes. If it works for everybody, then I would be all for it. If it is begginer specific beta, then I would question it. ie the amga palm down TR belay.

The pinky method is better, of course, but it's still very marginal.

Please bother to read all the posts. The problem is always the users.
Total belay failure was extremely rare even when people were using the hip belay method. That doesn't not stop us from seeking newer, safer methods.
Here, people starting up always start with an ATC.
The gri-gri is just to expensive to just buy before they know more about climbing, and if they want to continue doing it.

When you are feeding a clip with an atc, you have to lock it off in the event of a sudden fall. (change hand position)

I do not. I keep my break hand below the device. To give slack, I slide it as far as I can towards the ground and then push rope up while I pull up with my other hand. To give more, repeat.
That is the only method taught(sp) here.

I don't think so, and the manufacturer of the grigri agrees.

Here is a test for you. Mark your rope and see if you can move seven feet of rope through the device(atc) in both directions in under three second. (three pulls each way)

I can move a little more with a grigri then an atc. Safely that is.