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andy_reagan
Jan 26, 2005, 7:45 PM
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I've heard that using three cams for the belay is a bad idea in that it could cause total failure (this was theoretically offered as an explanation in a double? fatality iirc). Besides wanting to save the cams for the actual climbing (which is definitely valid), what is the reasoning behind not building an all cam belay anchor? In addition, would this apply to all gear with camming action (tricams, hexes) as well or is it something intrinsic to cams only?
Thanks.
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tarzan420
Jan 26, 2005, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: I've heard that using three cams for the belay is a bad idea in that it could cause total failure (this was theoretically offered as an explanation in a double? fatality iirc).
In reply to: Besides wanting to save the cams for the actual climbing (which is definitely valid), what is the reasoning behind not building an all cam belay anchor? |
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mbg
Jan 26, 2005, 7:58 PM
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The only scenario I can think of where this is a bad idea is if all three cams are placed behind a single flake. If the flake expands as the cams are loaded, you're toast.
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omenbringer
Jan 26, 2005, 8:15 PM
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I have heard that the reason you dont want to use Three cams for a belay is because they give no real feed back to placement quality, where as a nut or piton is realitively easy to evaluate. The cams outerward preasure and holding force is realitively comensurate with the force applied to it. In a fall this force is large, at a hanging belay it is small. This secnario was talked about in an older thread which for some reason evades my memory now. Another possible worry is that cams can move out of a good placement and into a crap one fairly easily. Think about moving around at the belay and the cams gradually walking in or rotating out of a good placement.
I dont claim to have gobs of physics data to back me up, but I hope that helps a little. As for me I always try to use a mix of pro in my anchors, nuts, active cams, and passive cams.
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trenchdigger
Jan 26, 2005, 8:37 PM
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Just to reiterate the only sentence necessary to answer this thread:
In reply to: Using three cams in an intellegent manner is no more or less likely to fail than any other anchor method.
~Adam~
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vincent
Jan 26, 2005, 8:42 PM
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stick with sport climbing and gym cranking and you won't have to worry about bothersome cam anchors....
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cracklover
Jan 26, 2005, 8:48 PM
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It's better to place the gear that works best for the situation. Sometimes that's three cams, sometimes it's three nuts, sometimes it's one sling. It depends. Honestly, there's no better answer than that.
If there are several equivalent options, it's best to save the gear you'll need for the next pitch.
GO
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johnnord
Jan 26, 2005, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The only scenario I can think of where this is a bad idea is if all three cams are placed behind a single flake. If the flake expands as the cams are loaded, you're toast. Yep, it's generally a bad idea to place all your gear in one crack for this reason, but sometimes it's entirely unavoidable. I use 3 cams in anchors all the time.
Just to clarify, mulitple pieces (cams or passive) behind a single flake are problematic; however, multiple pieces in a single crack are not really a problem (depending on how you define a crack.)
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eastvillage
Jan 26, 2005, 11:04 PM
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The thing to remember here is that one good piece of passive protection, a nut or hex, can be more easily identified as bomber where as with cams, you never have that level of confidence, as compared with a solid passive placement.
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johnnord
Jan 27, 2005, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: The thing to remember here is that one good piece of passive protection, a nut or hex, can be more easily identified as bomber where as with cams, you never have that level of confidence, as compared with a solid passive placement.
That's an interesting claim. Anecdotally speaking, in all my years of climbing I have never fallen on a piece, passive or cam, that failed. However, I have on too many occassions climbed past a passive piece and had it fall out below me. I have never had this happen to me with a cam. (This is also true, less frequently but more embarassingly, for my seconds.) I agree that a well-slotted nut is a great feeling, but I also feel equally confident in a well-placed cam.
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healyje
Jan 27, 2005, 12:58 AM
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In reply to: Anecdotally speaking, in all my years of climbing I have never fallen on a piece, passive or cam, that failed.
Not sure how many years that would be, but it's hard to imagine a long career with no blown placements and without at least one blown piece.
In reply to: However, I have on too many occassions climbed past a passive piece and had it fall out below me. I have never had this happen to me with a cam. (This is also true, less frequently but more embarassingly, for my seconds.)
If you have nuts lift out after you pass them then you simply either a) aren't placing them right; b) aren't slinging them right; or c) need to learn to set some opposition. That your cams aren't coming out sounds like a case of cams fortunately compensating/masking your not really thinking through the placements, slinging, and use of opposition.
I treat passive and active pro exactly the same relative to placements,slinging, opposition, and expectations - regardless of whether being used for proctection or anchors. And, also (and really), there is no particular voodoo associated with either cams or the number "three" in an anchor setup.
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boulderinemt
Feb 7, 2005, 4:16 PM
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its a bad idea... didn't you see vertical limit? :roll: p.s. please notice sarcasim
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jimdavis
Feb 8, 2005, 5:36 AM
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In reply to: I have heard that the reason you dont want to use Three cams for a belay is because they give no real feed back to placement quality, where as a nut or piton is realitively easy to evaluate.
Pins are easy to evaluate, huh? :roll:
I'll take a cam over a pin anyday (provided it's not a junk placement)
Cheers,
Jim
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toejam
Feb 8, 2005, 6:47 AM
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In reply to: But for whatever my opinion is worth, I believe the problem is not with Camalots, rather with rigging any primary anchor only with SLCD's. Because SLCD's can pivot under a shockload, I have always been terrified of rigging a anchor exclusively from said units. I always try and get a big taper or Hex in or better yet, a natural anchor. |
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phxtradrock
Feb 8, 2005, 7:39 AM
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So far i have only hear one person speak of opposition. This is the best advice you can give in any anchor thred. All three point anchors should be opposed by at least one piece. This keeps the anchor weighted and keeps cams from walking. Any piece of pro can blow if your leader takes a hard fall and loads it in a direction other than the direction it was set (anchor placements/stoppers/tricams). Your best bet is to pick up a book about anchors that incorporates both pictures and explainations. The Falcon Guides book about anchors is pretty good. Learn to use clove hitches with the rope and slings depending on the situation to oppose gear that could be ripped out by upward pull. The reason people do not like to use three cams in an anchor is the same for not using three of any type of pro... each piece of protection has its own pro's and con's; therefore, three different types of protection used at an anchor will be somewhat safer. Of course, it all depends on the situation at hand. Remember to oppose your anchors, if nothing else. I usually equalize two placements below cruxes and oppose all stopper placements. At anchors i oppose the anchor system.
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addiroids
Feb 8, 2005, 8:24 AM
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When a nut and a knee bar is good enough.
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cracklover
Feb 8, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: Remember to oppose your anchors, if nothing else.
In reply to: I usually equalize two placements below cruxes and oppose all stopper placements. At anchors i oppose the anchor system.
Jesus, you must have a bigger rack than Kate!
GO
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 8, 2005, 5:23 PM
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Use whatever gear you still have that fits the cracks the best. You can beef the anchor up if nessicary when the second arrives with the cleaned gear. I have set hangeing belays off of two decent sized cams in perfect granit placements and felt as safe as if they were bolts. I have also had hanging belays with a whole nest of crap that terrifyed me :shock: there is no hard and fast rule that you follow every time. take what the rock gives you or carry a drill :twisted:
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paulraphael
Feb 9, 2005, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I have heard that the reason you dont want to use Three cams for a belay is because they give no real feed back to placement quality, where as a nut or piton is realitively easy to evaluate. Pins are easy to evaluate, huh? :roll: I'll take a cam over a pin anyday (provided it's not a junk placement) Cheers, Jim
I'm guessing the person you're replying to was refering to a pin he placed himself, not to a fixed one (which would warrant the same suspicion as any fixed gear).
Cams are amazing, but in terms of absolute security (would you bet the farm on it?) they do not provide the kind of simple, foolproof visual or tactile feedback that some other pieces do. A nut solidly wedged in a bottleneck simply isn't going to go anywhere (unless you grossly miscalculated the direction of pull, which in a factor 2 fall situation should always be some variation on Down. Or unless the rock or the piece breaks). Same for a baby angle piton that you just hammered into a horizontal crack (I'm an alpinist, not a fossil ... i carry a couple of pins on icy routes). But with a cam, the physics are more complex, and harder to evaluate. They can be secure, and sometimes will be the only option worth considering--but in cases where you can use either, the simpler piece has a lot to recommend it.
I think it's a silly rule to say "never trust a 3-cam anchor." In the real world your choices are often limited, and sometimes getting any 3 pieces you can get before the sun goes down and the storm rolls in will be safer than sitting on a ledge trying to make sense of all the rules. That being said, for any critical placement, I'll chose a nut over a cam if all else is equal.
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omenbringer
Feb 9, 2005, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: I'm guessing the person you're replying to was refering to a pin he placed himself, not to a fixed one (which would warrant the same suspicion as any fixed gear). |
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josephgdawson
Feb 9, 2005, 8:06 PM
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Two very experience climbers died in southern California last year when a 3 cam anchor ripped. I think the accident was written up in Climbing. I will try to find a link to the story.
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mandrake
Feb 9, 2005, 9:10 PM
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Yeah, I think those were the guys on Angel's Fright in Tahquitz. There was a thread about it, but I can't remember if there was a determination of cause (and I really should get back to work, so hopefully someone else will link to the thread).
Read Greg's (phxtradrock) piece above about setting an upward pull piece. Without a piece for upward pull, if you had X number of pieces of any sort placed only for a downward pull when you finished pitch one, should the leader on pitch two fall, the belayer back at the top of P1 could be pulled upwards and dislodge the gear. Very exciting, but not a problem unique to cams.
As far as cams rotating, yes they rotate but if you give an outward pull to a stopper or tricam set for a downward pull, it ain't gonna rotate, it'll pop!
Doesn't matter what the gear is, you gotta watch your direction of pull both on lead and at the belay. IMO, the main reason to avoid cams at belays is just because they're so useful for the leader of the next pitch.
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petsfed
Feb 9, 2005, 9:22 PM
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While I don't like having an all cam anchor, its not based on any real reason. Its just a habit I got into, something bomber about having a good nut in the anchor. The two keys to anchor building (above and beyond all that srene stuff): build it solid, and build it in such a way that you trust it. There's no good reason not to have an all cam anchor, but I avoid them all the same because I'm not comfortable with them.
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mik_c_dos
Feb 9, 2005, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: The only scenario I can think of where this is a bad idea is if all three cams are placed behind a single flake. If the flake expands as the cams are loaded, you're toast.
I agree completely but the reason for failure isn't because of the cams, the reason is because of the flake. Even an anchor mixed with active and passive pro will fail if the flake opening expands.
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