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beyond_gravity
Jun 29, 2002, 6:09 PM
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Registered: Jan 2, 2002
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There is this 11a that I was going to try, and I asked someone who was just rapping down how the route was. She said "ya, it's really nice and pockety, but the bolts are kinnda hard to clip cuz the hangers spin around" so i'm like..umm, that doesnt sound to safe, she said "Oh no, the bolts are glued in, so there super soild, the hangers are just a little loose. Dont worrk, it's still safe"
I just looked at her the same way I looked at the guy in Mexico when he told me the extremly turbid water was safe to drink.
I didnt climb the route! So my Q is, is it really safe if the bolts are glue-ins? my logic was that the bolt part was gonna stay in the rock, but if the hanger is loose it could cause enoughf levrage to sheer the end of the bolts off. Am I correct?
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mpbro
Jun 29, 2002, 7:59 PM
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I don't think a spinner in and of itself implies a weak bolt. Sometimes the geometry of the rock simply won't permit a snug placement of the hanger against the rock, but the bolt itself is bomber.
On the other hand, if the hanger was once flush, and the bolt has slowly worked its way out, you'd also have a spinner...a dangerous one!
Here's the kicker: unless you placed the bolt yourself (and have a great memory), you probably can't tell the difference!
Young, prudent man, you will go far!
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couloir
Jun 29, 2002, 8:26 PM
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Just rap down the route and feel the bolts. If they have absolutely no movement at all while pulling on them, they should be fine. It also depends on what type of rock it is, since glue-ins aren't for every type of rock.
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jds100
Jun 29, 2002, 8:36 PM
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Jeremy, you know the answer to this.
I don't think those bolts were glue-ins. I have a strong suspicion that the bolter cauked around the bolts after they had been installed. The glue-ins I've seen are very much longer than the Fixe-type (5-piece expansion bolt with sleeve), and have an "eye" for the hanger that is not a seperate piece from the long stem, so there could be no spinning hanger.
I've heard and read that cauking around installed expansion bolts is not good, since it traps any and all moisture that might otherwise escape through tiny (microscopic?) imperfections (so to speak) in the rock; this can build up, freeze, expand the placement, loosen the expansion bolt or squeeze/force the bolt forward out of the hole (thus looseing the hanger), cause rusting, etc. etc.
Chances are that these spinners cannot be tightened with a wrench, and a lot of people say it's a bad idea to try that anyway because it is likely to damage the hole and make it useless or weaker for the expansion bolt, and make it harder to remove the "bad" bolt. They probably weren't drilled deep enough. It's probably a better idea for these bolts to be properly removed (not "chopped"), for the holes to be drilled a little deeper and blown clean with a straw (close your eyes), then the bolts can be re-installed (properly removed bolts can be re-used safely).
If the hanger is spinning, then there is some leveraging going on, on a bolt stem that's sticking out too far, and that means a weaker placement than intended, however small the leveraging.
And, pulling on a bolt is no test for it's saftey in a lead fall, nor is hanging statically from a bolt.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-06-29 13:42 ]
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crux_clipper
Jul 9, 2002, 2:21 AM
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yeah, what he said........
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laplaya
Jul 9, 2002, 2:57 AM
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Registered: May 23, 2001
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OK, this brings up a slighty related. Exactly how do you "properly" remove a bolt?
Bolts are designed to expand as the are pulled on, making them next to imposible to remove let alone while you are hanging off a wall with a limited amount of gear. Could someone please explain how to do this properly? If you are concerned that this info might fall into the wrong hands, pm me on the matter.
Thanks
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krustyklimber
Jul 9, 2002, 3:39 AM
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Registered: Jan 25, 2002
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The Rawl 5-piece bolts are easy to remove just loosen and disassemble them, the wedge anchors require a little more brutalty.
To remove these you get a bolt popper, I think Black Diamond makes'em, it is a knifeblade piton with a slot ground through it (like a pickle fork) this is driven under the hanger or the nut, and the bolt is driven out of it's hole. Or you can use the nut and spacers to tighten the nut out of place, put the spacer under the nut and tighten add spacers and repeat until it pops out. Sometimes they will start to spin before they come out if they do use a slide hammer to pull it the rest of the way.
Wedge anchors CANNOT BE REUSED, and for that reason are my first choice. We have had problems with thieves stealing the hangers and bolts from climbs. The bolts are still there even if they steal my hangers.
Jeff
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laplaya
Jul 10, 2002, 12:29 AM
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Registered: May 23, 2001
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Thanks Jeff, I did not know this. I will look for Rawl 5 bolts, as I havent seen them and the sound very interesting.
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