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kubi
May 23, 2005, 9:44 PM
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The way I was shown to belay an 2nd on a topout was to tie yourself into the anchor in such a way that you are sitting right on the edge of the cliff, legs dangling over, then belay right off your harness. Is there a more comfortable way to do this and still allow yourself to see the 2nd climb and avoid excessive rope abrasion if the second is going to be hanging a lot?
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tradrenn
May 24, 2005, 1:59 AM
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You can also belay off the anchor using Reverso in autolock or Munter Hitch and you be more comfortable amd your second's waight wont be dirrectly on your harness.
The latest issue of Climbing Mag. has an article about that.
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nedsurf
May 24, 2005, 3:55 AM
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definitly check out that climber mag article. It helped me a lot. A neat cartoon representation shows it all. :D
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live2climb
May 24, 2005, 3:57 AM
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reverso is the way to go for sure when you buy it just ask if they will help demonstrate it and read that book they give you it has a lot of info to do a lot of stuff and it auto locks so it makes rope managment a lot easer
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blondgecko
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May 24, 2005, 4:55 AM
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Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall.
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tradrenn
May 25, 2005, 1:49 AM
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In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall.
Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ?
Think about it.
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kubi
May 25, 2005, 2:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ? Think about it.
I was thinking the same thing. Also, for the people that suggested using a reverso in autoblocking mode wouldn't it be excessively difficult to release the lock should you need to for some reason?
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tradrenn
May 25, 2005, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ? Think about it. I was thinking the same thing. Also, for the people that suggested using a reverso in autoblocking mode wouldn't it be excessively difficult to release the lock should you need to for some reason?
You can check info that comes with reverso
or
(reverso in autolock) poul (spelling ?)on the rope that goes to your "second" with one hand and use othere hand to move biner back and forward.
Try that close above the ground and you will see that it actually works, it is only slow.
(I hope this is clear anough, I much rather show it to you, but.......)
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blueeyedclimber
May 26, 2005, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ? Think about it.
Actually, if you set the anchor back from the edge and position yourself on the brake side of the ATC, it works. If you do this, however, you will want to cushion the edge of the cliff with something, because the rope will be running over it.
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tradrenn
May 26, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ? Think about it. Actually, if you set the anchor back from the edge and position yourself on the brake side of the ATC, it works. If you do this, however, you will want to cushion the edge of the cliff with something, because the rope will be running over it.
I don't mean to get on the rant here but:
The problem I have with this set up is that at the time of bringing the second to the top your upper body has to lean over the edge to pul (spelling ?) the rope thru an ATC. The only thing I'm thinking is that if you loose your balance then you will fall over that edge and most likely let go of the rope.
You can imagine the rest
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cfnubbler
May 26, 2005, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: Actually, if you set the anchor back from the edge and position yourself on the brake side of the ATC, it works.
This is only a reasonable thing to do if you can stand behind the device, which is awkward, or you re-direct the brake-strand through a 2nd biner above the powerpoint somewhere, which makes taking in slack a bit annoying. Otherwise, the load stand and brake strand will be running roughly parallel, and you can't be sure you'll always be able to lock off. All in all, not a very good practice. I've never seen a situation where there wasn't a significantly better approach.
Probably the best alternative is a munter or plaquette / reverso style device.
To avoid excessive rope wear, place your anchor as high up as you can get it, reducing the angle at which the load strand passes over the edge. Higher anchors are also much, much easier and more comfortable to belay directly off of than low anchors.
The idea of positioning the powerpoint below the edge is bad for lots of reasons, and as mentioned, belayer comfort is definitely one of them.
-Nubb;er
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blueeyedclimber
May 27, 2005, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: To avoid excessive rope wear, place your anchor as high up as you can get it, reducing the angle at which the load strand passes over the edge. Higher anchors are also much, much easier and more comfortable to belay directly off of than low anchors. -Nubb;er
You're right, but I was mainly thinking if you are on a topout with a flat cliff and no options of a higher anchor. It is not the ideal, but is possible. If you have been to Otter Cliffs in Acadia, ME, this is pretty much standard.
Josh
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blondgecko
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May 28, 2005, 3:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable ? Think about it. Actually, if you set the anchor back from the edge and position yourself on the brake side of the ATC, it works. If you do this, however, you will want to cushion the edge of the cliff with something, because the rope will be running over it. I don't mean to get on the rant here but: The problem I have with this set up is that at the time of bringing the second to the top your upper body has to lean over the edge to pul (spelling ?) the rope thru an ATC. The only thing I'm thinking is that if you loose your balance then you will fall over that edge and most likely let go of the rope. You can imagine the rest
'spose I should have been a bit more detailed. First thing I do when I top out is make myself safe. On a "standard" climb I'll do this by tying a figure-eight into the first piece of my anchor. I set the length of it so that it's just comfortably tight at my chosen belay seat. I then make the rest of the anchor so that the power-point is just (and I mean just) past the edge. Of course, this requires me to bend down to take up slack, but I prefer this - I can generally watch the second climb, and I find the bending motion relaxes me (and helps to keep me warm on those cold, windy days).
In terms of abrasion problems over the edge: if the second is likely to be falling a lot, I'll pad it. However, an advantage of this belay method is that if you keep the powerpoint "lifted" slightly, the force from any fall comes onto your brake hand before it comes onto the anchor. This allows you to provide a relatively soft catch - in fact, in most cases I find I can take the vast majority of the initial fall, and then lower the climber gently onto the anchor. This is generally a bit of an overkill, but provides a great deal of peace of mind, especially on those "bad-gear" days.
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brutusofwyde
May 28, 2005, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: 'spose I should have been a bit more detailed. First thing I do when I top out is make myself safe. On a "standard" climb I'll do this by tying a figure-eight into the first piece of my anchor. I set the length of it so that it's just comfortably tight at my chosen belay seat.
Clove hitch is far easier to adjust if you're off by a few inches in your estimate.
In reply to: I then make the rest of the anchor so that the power-point is just (and I mean just) past the edge. Of course, this requires me to bend down to take up slack, but I prefer this - I can generally watch the second climb, and I find the bending motion relaxes me (and helps to keep me warm on those cold, windy days). In terms of abrasion problems over the edge: if the second is likely to be falling a lot, I'll pad it. However, an advantage of this belay method is that if you keep the powerpoint "lifted" slightly, the force from any fall comes onto your brake hand before it comes onto the anchor. This allows you to provide a relatively soft catch - in fact, in most cases I find I can take the vast majority of the initial fall, and then lower the climber gently onto the anchor. This is generally a bit of an overkill, but provides a great deal of peace of mind, especially on those "bad-gear" days.
So if I understand you correctly, you are basically holding up your second with one hand (your brake hand) and lowering him softly onto the anchor. I call BS. Either that or you must be able to do a lot more one-arm pull-ups than I.
-- As you have described this, your second's weight is hitting you first, then hitting the equalized anchor. I fail to see how that is safer, since you are only tied into one piece in the anchor system, on an admittedly "bad gear" day.
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dirtineye
May 28, 2005, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 'spose I should have been a bit more detailed. First thing I do when I top out is make myself safe. On a "standard" climb I'll do this by tying a figure-eight into the first piece of my anchor. I set the length of it so that it's just comfortably tight at my chosen belay seat. Clove hitch is far easier to adjust if you're off by a few inches in your estimate.
Amen!
In reply to: In reply to: I then make the rest of the anchor so that the power-point is just (and I mean just) past the edge. Of course, this requires me to bend down to take up slack, but I prefer this - I can generally watch the second climb, and I find the bending motion relaxes me (and helps to keep me warm on those cold, windy days). In terms of abrasion problems over the edge: if the second is likely to be falling a lot, I'll pad it. However, an advantage of this belay method is that if you keep the powerpoint "lifted" slightly, the force from any fall comes onto your brake hand before it comes onto the anchor. This allows you to provide a relatively soft catch - in fact, in most cases I find I can take the vast majority of the initial fall, and then lower the climber gently onto the anchor. This is generally a bit of an overkill, but provides a great deal of peace of mind, especially on those "bad-gear" days. So if I understand you correctly, you are basically holding up your second with one hand (your brake hand) and lowering him softly onto the anchor. I call BS. Either that or you must be able to do a lot more one-arm pull-ups than I. -- As you have described this, your second's weight is hitting you first, then hitting the equalized anchor. I fail to see how that is safer, since you are only tied into one piece in the anchor system, on an admittedly "bad gear" day.
Bingo.
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tattooed_climber
May 28, 2005, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: The way I was shown to belay an 2nd on a topout was to tie yourself into the anchor in such a way that you are sitting right on the edge of the cliff, legs dangling over, then belay right off your harness. Is there a more comfortable way to do this and still allow yourself to see the 2nd climb and avoid excessive rope abrasion if the second is going to be hanging a lot?
it all depends......personal experience and addapting to the situation...the john long books on anchors are a good start.....but in terms of rigging, rescearch from this site, books, friends, etc....make a list, do all of them, find what you like....but you have to be able to addapt..so just keep adding tricks to your bag...
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blondgecko
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May 29, 2005, 12:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 'spose I should have been a bit more detailed. First thing I do when I top out is make myself safe. On a "standard" climb I'll do this by tying a figure-eight into the first piece of my anchor. I set the length of it so that it's just comfortably tight at my chosen belay seat. Clove hitch is far easier to adjust if you're off by a few inches in your estimate.
True, but I very rarely find I have to adjust.
In reply to: In reply to: I then make the rest of the anchor so that the power-point is just (and I mean just) past the edge. Of course, this requires me to bend down to take up slack, but I prefer this - I can generally watch the second climb, and I find the bending motion relaxes me (and helps to keep me warm on those cold, windy days). In terms of abrasion problems over the edge: if the second is likely to be falling a lot, I'll pad it. However, an advantage of this belay method is that if you keep the powerpoint "lifted" slightly, the force from any fall comes onto your brake hand before it comes onto the anchor. This allows you to provide a relatively soft catch - in fact, in most cases I find I can take the vast majority of the initial fall, and then lower the climber gently onto the anchor. This is generally a bit of an overkill, but provides a great deal of peace of mind, especially on those "bad-gear" days. So if I understand you correctly, you are basically holding up your second with one hand (your brake hand) and lowering him softly onto the anchor. I call BS. Either that or you must be able to do a lot more one-arm pull-ups than I.
Give it a try sometime. You'd be amazed at how much you can hold straight-armed. The trick (as with many things in climbing) is to keep your arms straight, and let your core muscles do the work.
In reply to: -- As you have described this, your second's weight is hitting you first, then hitting the equalized anchor. I fail to see how that is safer, since you are only tied into one piece in the anchor system, on an admittedly "bad gear" day.
Firstly, if that first piece isn't absolutely bomber, I will obviously clip in to a second one or sling myself to the powerpoint. That's just common sense.
As far as the weight hitting me - I am not part of the system. There is zero chance of me being pulled over the edge. Any force greater than I can hold simply pulls my arm forward (i.e. bends me forward at the shoulders) about 6 inches or so until the weight is entirely on the anchor. Even then I am significantly reducing the peak force by spreading the load over a longer time period.
If you still don't get this, then I'm sorry - I guess I'm not explaining it well enough. That's why I generally avoid discussing technical details on the web.
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tradrenn
May 31, 2005, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: I guess I'm not explaining it well enough. That's why I generally avoid discussing technical details on the web.
Try to think about it as a feed back from other climbers. All of us can sometimes learn from it.
Good Day
Tradrenn
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ddriver
Jun 6, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: Set up your anchor so that the power-point is just over the edge. Find a comfy sitting position beside it, and belay away, directly off the anchor. With the power point in this position (i.e. below you), you can belay using a sticht plate or ATC, since as long as you are holding the tail, it will automatically shift into the lock position in the event of a fall.
I'm afraid this explanation is both confusing and potentially dangerous. Regardless of whether the belayer is belaying directly off their body or in a re-directed fashion through the power point, this arrangement (power point below belayer) will load the belayer BEFORE loading the power point. A basic rule of belaying is that implied loads do not move the belayer. Essentially, this is describing the same scenario you're already using.
Kubi, the problem with the method you've been taught is that you are restricted with your rope management options AND your harness will be loaded in the event of a fall. You can very simply improve both limitations by re-directing your belay through a power point above you. If the cliff-top is absolutely level you may want to make your stance a semi-hanging one where your waist is about level with the cliff top. Normally, though, there is an option for an anchor located vertically above you, or enough rounding of the cliff edge to allow you to stand (or crouch) overlooking the edge. If the anchors are away from your choice of belay stance, the easiest way to properly locate the power point above you is to tie a figure-eight on a bite directly into your anchor rope about two feet above your harness.
Obviously, there are any number of possible geometries here, but there are few instances where you should feel forced to belay sitting and directly off your harness. Depending on the situation, you might also consider using a traditional hip belay rather than a belay plate for a seated belay. It certainly makes for easier rope management, but you should seek direct competent instruction before trying it.
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kubi
Jun 6, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Thanks for your advice everyone. From the sound of it I'm belaying the best way. I'd like to be able to set the anchor up higher, but the trees at the top of the crag aren't that big. Big enough to make a secure anchor, but not so big I'd be comfortable slinging anywhere other then right at ground level.
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papounet
Jun 7, 2005, 12:17 PM
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In reply to: If you still don't get this, then I'm sorry - I guess I'm not explaining it well enough. That's why I generally avoid discussing technical details on the web.
That doesn't get you off the hook. Some of the most-read posters go to lengths of details with pictures of anchors, schematics, force diagrams and computations. Debating in details techniques and taking with a very critical eye everything written on Internet is one of the ways to challenge our practices.
What you have explained may work for you or at least seem to work. What you described (unless I am mistaken) is easily understood because it is one of the "easy" tempting things to do.
the one good recommendation is belaying from the anchorpoint. the rest is highly debatable.
1. putting the anchor point below you makes yarding rope, holding a fall, tieing the rope and/or setting a hauling system a mess. Most probably, at some point, you will have to do with a injured, tired or freaked-out partner.
2. because you set the powerpoint below, you are fig-8-hitched to only the first piece of your anchor. (I read your earlier answer to this, but do not buy it, there are next-to-none excuse in a non-time-critical environement such as top roping to do anything but a near-perfect safety setup)
3.the only way i can picture you being able to keep the powerpoint lifted by your own muscles, catch falls and lower the climber gently on the anchor is: a/you keep the rope between the climber and your hand very taut, b/ somehow the rope between the belay device and the climber is not as taut, c/you are insanely strong
4. in my humble opinion, the fact, that setting up the anchor above the lip enables you to manage it, offsets mightily the probable requirement of padding.
5. you can keep the anchor slings around the tree as close to the ground as possible for strenght while keeping the anchorpoint out of the dust/grounds/mess. unless the tree as extremely close to the cliff, slinging low is not going to change drastically the angle of the rope over the lip.
6. Grigri and Reverso excel in belaying a second from the powerpoint placed above. Munter hitch works fine. Special care has to be taken with tube-like device and fig-8.
(Last as a reminder tthat top-rope from the top are as "dangerous" as any belaying situation, there has been one (and only one) deadly accident where it is believed that a piece of rockcristal (or glass) got into the grigri (which was laying in the dust at the powerpoint) and cut the rope at the time of a fall.
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