|
blitzkrieg_climber13
Jun 19, 2005, 4:52 AM
Post #1 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 288
|
my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree?
|
|
|
|
|
sam_dude19
Jun 19, 2005, 5:00 AM
Post #2 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 30
|
No..., personally, i dont really think that you can compare gym climbing to outdoor climbing, at all...two totally different ball games. Especially when it comes to the mental part, it takes a solid mind to lead multipitch trad... It really doesnt matter what mind-set you're in when toproping indoors. Im not bashing gym climbing at all, i just think it's real tough to compare the two. As for difficulties, im sure it depends on the climb, and the situation. I have seen some pretty tough climbs on indoor walls with huge overhangs and stuff....try to do that on rock though.... and as for using your feet a lot, yes, on all climbing you should use your feet as much as possible, when you get on some tougher outdoor climbs you'll see what i mean. Alright, i'v drifted way off subject...KEEP CLIMBIN'!
|
|
|
|
|
pipsqueekspire
Jun 20, 2005, 5:38 AM
Post #3 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2003
Posts: 222
|
Hmm you think that 5.6 in a gym is harder than 5.6 outdoors? Really? How about 5.9? Try climbing 'stick to what?' in Josh or Open Book in Taquitz then say that the gym is harder!! I think that the gym is totally unrealistic and I think my gym is WAY easier than the outdoors. I climb on 10c overhangs in the gym all the time that go from jug to jug but I have never seen that in the outdoors. So I have started to re-rate the routes in the gym. After I do a climb I think what it would really be rated outside and it is usually downgraded a notch or two.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately because of how easy my gym is. Maybe it is like womens clothing sizes changing over the years to make someone who used to fit a size 12 now fit a size 4?!?! Makes you feel better about yourself! Just a thought.... or maybe because my head course setter never touches real rock if it involves a rope. that could explain why a V1 in the gym feels like 12c and indoor 5.9 feels like outdoor 5.6!
anyway... totally not related- just happen to both involve a rope and a harness..... unless of course you live near red river ky. Then your whole world is a gym! That place was fun and it proves that the gym is easier!
-pip
|
|
|
|
|
slyder
Jun 20, 2005, 5:50 AM
Post #4 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 60
|
I would also have to say that a lot of indoor climbing is not as realistic as outdoor climbing. Here's why:
1) It's not the same.
2) It's indoors.
3) It's not the same.
4) It's indoors.
5) It's indoors.
6) For God's sake, it's indoors.
Ok, sarcasm aside, the feel of outdoor climbing, at least to me, makes it seem a little tougher. The big difference to me is the visibility of holds. Granted, if a route (outdoors) is climbed frequently, the chalk marks give the handholds away. However, this is not always the case. In a gym, the holds are visible by way of bright colors and tape. However, outside everything tends to blend in to the face of the rock itself. This is where the mental aspect of outdoor climbing comes into play. It forces you to examine the route more, thus using more of your mind. ("I put my hand where and do what with my foot?!") This is why I use the gym to train (mostly) for my outdoor climbs.
As far as grading goes, I strickly use that as a guestimation. As far as difficulty goes, I find most routes to be graded the same; however, size and stature of climbers tends to vary, thus making a route either much more difficult or much easier.
That's just my opinion on the matter. Keep climb'n!
|
|
|
|
|
harryhood
Jun 20, 2005, 6:12 AM
Post #5 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 20, 2004
Posts: 13
|
I've only climbed a few times outdoors, and all on toprope, relatively short single-pitch stuff here in Quebec (and I love it anyways). I've been climbing in gyms off and on for about a year (and probably more off than on). Of the two main gyms in town, one seems to underrate their climbs. A 5.7 at Allez-up seems way harder than a 5.7 at Horizon Roc or the outdoor 5.7s I've climbed, or the stuff I've climbed in other gyms in other towns. I don't know about the harder stuff, but at my level this is the story. I reckon it depends on who sets the route mostly, although I haven't asked how they decide on their grades. If it's to train people to be better climbers than they need to be when they get outdoors, then I don't mind... it is a bit frustrating though when I get stuck and have to try a move 5 or 10 times to get past it.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 20, 2005, 6:28 AM
Post #6 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree?
I suspect most people will agree with you. After beating yourself up at your local climbing gym, going to Joshua Tree and hopping on a 5.11a lead always seems sooooo much easier. :lol:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
peroxide
Jun 20, 2005, 10:16 AM
Post #7 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 117
|
IN my experience there is serious grade inflation in most gyms and the fact that the holds are more often than not on the surface of the wall makes it more of knob ladder than anything else.
Only one route I have ever done outdoors felt just like climbing indoors:
Lollypop League 5.5 Adit Rock, Smith Rock State Park
It is a super fun jug haul that is probably 5.3.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 20, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #8 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
I used to think that gym climbing wasn't realistic because the holds where so perfect, but after climbing at several different places I have found lots of holds just like the unrealistic jugs and handles at the gym. I think climbing at the gym is an excellent training tool, espcially bouldering during the winter. I felt like the gym that I grew up at (the quarry, Provo, Utah) had a very good rating system.
-Kenny
------------------------
TradRack.com SuperStore
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 100 to give
Click here to see if you name is available
|
|
|
|
|
i_climb
Jun 20, 2005, 4:09 PM
Post #9 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 26
|
In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree?
I think the OP has a good point here. Regardless of whether or not your gym ratings reflect the ratings on real rock, the truth is that slab is hard to find in a gym. And when we are talking about sub 5.10 climbs, these are generally not that overhanging outside. (At least not where I'm from) So, when you are used to getting pumped out and using all of the arm strength you can muster to get up a 5.9 in the gym, you might find that outside the 5.9s don't require all that much arm strength, etc. I'm sure a lot of people will feel the opposite though, and that is fine, but I see where he's coming from.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Jun 20, 2005, 7:01 PM
Post #10 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree? I suspect most people will agree with you. After beating yourself up at your local climbing gym, going to Joshua Tree and hopping on a 5.11a lead always seems sooooo much easier. :lol: Curt
Yeah. I'm guessing you didn't try leading any 5.11a in J-Tree, did you. Once you do, come back and tell us how much easier it is. :roll:
GO
|
|
|
|
|
climbinginchico
Jun 20, 2005, 7:06 PM
Post #11 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 3032
|
In reply to: I used to think that gym climbing wasn't realistic because the holds where so perfect, but after climbing at several different places I have found lots of holds just like the unrealistic jugs and handles at the gym. I think climbing at the gym is an excellent training tool, espcially bouldering during the winter. I felt like the gym that I grew up at (the quarry, Provo, Utah) had a very good rating system. -Kenny
I have yet to see a gym that can prepare you for runout 5.7 greasy slab in Yosemite. Or how about a 5.8 lieback with polished, slick flaring hands and polished feet?
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 20, 2005, 7:07 PM
Post #12 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree? I suspect most people will agree with you. After beating yourself up at your local climbing gym, going to Joshua Tree and hopping on a 5.11a lead always seems sooooo much easier. :lol: Curt Yeah. I'm guessing you didn't try leading any 5.11a in J-Tree, did you. Once you do, come back and tell us how much easier it is. :roll: GO |
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 20, 2005, 7:12 PM
Post #13 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route i did after that. it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier becuase you used your feet so much more. my home gym (boulderdash) has pretty much everything overhung making it harder to use your feet and i was just wondering if anyone else finds that the gym doesnt really keep it that realistic when it comes to the climbs sub 5.10. my max is 5.11a and it was all overhung and really didnt think it compared at all to outdoor. anyone else agree?
Joshua Tree is notorious for its low-angle slab routes. If you climb someplace with steeper rock, then you'll find that gym climbing crosses over better. For something at J Tree that resembles a gym route, check out The Big Moe. Also, on the Thin Wall, No Calculators Allowed and the two TR routes to the left of No Calculators.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 20, 2005, 7:15 PM
Post #14 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In a gym, the holds are visible by way of bright colors and tape. However, outside everything tends to blend in to the face of the rock itself. This is where the mental aspect of outdoor climbing comes into play.
Did you write that yourself, or did you get it from that article at AskMen.com?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Jun 20, 2005, 7:51 PM
Post #15 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
In reply to: In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route ........ it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier .........my max is 5.11a and ....... I suspect most people will agree with you. After beating yourself up at your local climbing gym, going to Joshua Tree and hopping on a 5.11a lead always seems sooooo much easier. :lol: Curt
What's that easy, well protected .11a crack on Intersection Rock, left ski track or something?
no seriously, no gym can simulate slab, and that's why it's so hip.......
Face it, overhung face is dead, bouldering's played.......slab's coming back in a big fucking way.
|
|
|
|
|
wjca
Jun 20, 2005, 8:04 PM
Post #16 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2005
Posts: 7545
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: my dad and i went on a trip to j-tree for my first real climbing trip and i did my first lead and led every route ........ it seemed to me that the routes outdoor were alot easier .........my max is 5.11a and ....... I suspect most people will agree with you. After beating yourself up at your local climbing gym, going to Joshua Tree and hopping on a 5.11a lead always seems sooooo much easier. :lol: Curt What's that easy, well protected .11a crack on Intersection Rock, left ski track or something? no seriously, no gym can simulate slab, and that's why it's so hip....... Face it, overhung face is dead, bouldering's played.......slab's coming back in a big f---ing way.
Yeah, slab is the new black.
|
|
|
|
|
skateman
Jun 20, 2005, 8:56 PM
Post #17 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 186
|
I like climbing indoors so much that when I climb outside I always bring a big roll of red & yellow tape to mark the holds :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
tadam2000
Jun 20, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #18 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2004
Posts: 40
|
I think that the gym vs. outdoors question is pretty much an apples-and-oranges comparison; they are two completely different animals. Having been out of active climbing for quite a while (read "10+ years") I went into a gym a while back and did routes that were -- supposedly -- rated at the very top end of what I was able to do when I was climbing all the time. Logically, I should not be able to do a 5.10c after a long layoff during which the only exercise I got was swinging a golf club.
For me, gym climbing is a decent way of conditioning, but the translation from a gym to outdoors climbing on real rock is marginal at best.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtyleaf
Jun 20, 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #19 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 36
|
I recently went climbing outdoors at a sport area. The partner I was with had been climbing for about 5 years almost all of which were spent inside. He kept telling me that if I wasn't falling I wasn't trying hard enough. He kept bashing me for my slow and careful way of climbing while he would just lunge up any route and fall up to 3 times. He kept asking about trad climbing and the differences and since he climbs 5.11 in the gym he thinks he's ready for a multi-pitch trad route rated at up to 5.10. NO WAY dood. That kind of mindset scares the piss out of me. Trad climbing and indoor climbing are two different ball games. If you're motto is "if I'm not falling a lot, I'm not really climbing" doesn't fly in the mountains. Has anyone else had an experience with the "Gym" mentality? :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
gochubug
Jun 20, 2005, 10:24 PM
Post #20 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 116
|
The gym is just that...a gym; a place to train. It is to rock climbing as a regular weights-and-treadmill gym is to sports like track and field. What you get out of it is strength and balance training, practice on moves and body position, and so forth. It does not closely simulate climbing on real rock, but the training and practice you get in there does carry over into your outdoor climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
xp
Jun 22, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #21 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2005
Posts: 29
|
Haven't you heard this line: The rock gym is,... well..., neither.
The gym I used to go to doesn't have cracks also. Except a couple overhanging that I find impossible to do.
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
Jun 22, 2005, 9:40 PM
Post #22 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
Gyms are good for long cold winters (if you don't ice climb), rainy days and late night workouts. It's pratice ... yep, just pratice.
Alan
|
|
|
|
|
flipnfall
Jun 22, 2005, 11:33 PM
Post #23 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 18, 2004
Posts: 717
|
Just like so many questions, the answer is, "It depends." In over 20 years of climbing, I have found that gyms often simulate high-friction stone surfaces such as sandstone. Indoor climbing is often (though not always) easier than climbing on most "comparable" outside surfaces. The reason for this is that most outdoor climbs have less obvious holds and lower friction. In the gym, holds stand out so the climber spends most of their time focusing on technique without the additional task of searching for holds.
I read the comment that a certain gym has a lot of overhanging surface where the outdoor climbs were not. You cannot compare an overhanging gym surface to a vertical natural face and generalize "outdoors is easier." If you rated most vertical indoor 5.9s to outdoor 5.9s, you will get varying answers as to which is easier. If it's a 5.9 on smooth, rain-polished granite, the granite surface is going to seem harder. If your gym route setters have a preference for sloped holds and you compare it to an outdoor sharp-edged quartzite route, then the outdoor route will seem easier. But if you do your best to compare route qualities such as wall angle, hold friction and rating, generally speaking the gym routes will be similar to somewhat easier.
Remember this: there is more to comparing routes than just a rating.
GT
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 22, 2005, 11:36 PM
Post #24 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Gyms are good for long cold winters (if you don't ice climb), rainy days and late night workouts.
I can think of a better word than "gyms" to use in that sentence.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
snoangel
Jun 22, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #25 of 57
(8590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2004
Posts: 1715
|
In reply to: In reply to: Gyms are good for long cold winters (if you don't ice climb), rainy days and late night workouts. I can think of a better word than "gyms" to use in that sentence. -Jay
Perhaps "gyms" was merely misspelled and was meant to be "Jims" :twisted: Works for me. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
