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tradclimbinfool
Nov 8, 2005, 4:01 PM
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I hate to come across as an ass, but.....
What's with using 9/16 webbing instead of a rope? Seems potentially dangerous to me. By "roping up" at all you must have assumed that there was some possibility that you would fall. I'm afraid that if you had, your "system" might have disappointed you.
Also, it seems quite irresponsible to hope that you could hitch a ride down on someone else's rope. What gives? Were you too worried about your elapsed time to bring the proper equipment yourself?
I really do hope you think about these issues in the future. While you may get lucky now and then and pull something like this off unscathed, luck has a tendancy to swing in both directions.
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waltereo
Nov 8, 2005, 6:12 PM
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No pics to click !!
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price1869
Nov 9, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Well, thanks for your concern. I'm very aware of the safe working load on webbing, seems like it worked just fine. There's a possibility that I'll fall down the stairs in my house, but i don't rope up for that.
And . . . hitching a ride down some one else's rope is perfectly normal for a group of two on the Grand. It's almost expected, and if by some chance a bunch of "tradclimber fools" don't want to let you use their rope, you can always just down climb, which is what we did in several spots.
From here on out, if you don't have something nice or constructive to say, please don't reply to my posts.
Thanks.
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mnutz
Nov 9, 2005, 9:12 PM
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What was unconstructive about his post? Maybe if you can't handle constructive criticism, you shouldn't post.
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pt
Nov 10, 2005, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: I hate to come across as an ass, but..... What's with using 9/16 webbing instead of a rope? Seems potentially dangerous to me. By "roping up" at all you must have assumed that there was some possibility that you would fall. I'm afraid that if you had, your "system" might have disappointed you.
Ditto. The dynamic part of a "dynamic belay" is the rope. I would imagine the leader would act like a giant funkness device in the event of a fall and would rip all the gear and his partner off the climb. The potential loads using a static "rope" would be huge, especially in the event of a factor 2 fall. By the way, what kind of belay device were you using? Just curious. And I don't mean to be an ass either, just offering some food for thought.
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climbingnurse
Nov 10, 2005, 3:20 AM
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The problem wouldn't be with the webbing not being strong enough. I feel fairly certain that the webbing would not have broken in the event of a leader fall. The problem is that everything else in the system probably would have. Webbing is static. You'd be putting tremendous force on your gear and your bodies in the event of a fall.
I think you would have actually been a lot safer free soloing than tying yourselves together with webbing. At least that way only one of you would have been hurt/killed in a fall.
Is it really standard practice to go up the Grand without a rope in hopes that someone will let you rap on their's? I'm seriously curious. Given your description of the route conditions, do you really think you could have safely downclimbed the whole route?
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thomaskeefer
Nov 10, 2005, 3:25 AM
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Actually, no on is expecting to have someone rap their lines on the grand. That is normally a conversation that goes like this "hey, wanna tie our ropes and make it in one rap instead of two?" toward another party... no expectations though.
It shouldn't be "You had the foresight to bring the right gear on this route and I dont even have any idea what I am doing, in fact I just climbed on 1 inch webbing, but I would like to rap your lines.. is that cool you trad dorks? you knew this would happen right?"
Anyway..
BTW, someone pointing out that you are less than wise climbing on that stuff is not nit picking you. I have not heard anything like that before. WOW :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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thomaskeefer
Nov 10, 2005, 3:30 AM
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"The dynamic part of a "dynamic belay" is the rope."
Seems as if this thread is a disaster waiting to happen but this little nugget is not true at all. Although the rope is dynamic, it does not form the dynamic nature of a dynamic belay. In fact, you can easily have a fairly 'static' belay with a Gri Gri. A dynamic belay is a belay in which some rope passes through the device and the belayers brake hand as the leader is being arrested from her fall. This effectively reduces the load by slowing the acceleration down (or decelleration if you like) from what you would get if you just locked off on the rope.
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pt
Nov 10, 2005, 3:47 AM
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I'll rephrase; A big dynamic component of the system is the rope.
Even with a grigri you will still have a dynamic system if using a dynamic climbing rope.
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thomaskeefer
Nov 10, 2005, 4:32 AM
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Rope equals dynamic system... correct..
Rope with gri gri = dynamic system (not dynamic belay- possibly symantics? if you are leading w/ nylon webbing then yes, for the rest of us- Nope not really)
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tradclimbinfool
Nov 10, 2005, 2:48 PM
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Since, despite my best efforts, the OP already regards me as inconsiderate...
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who finds the OP's techniques out of the ordinary. You have all elaborated well on my initial concerns. The static nature of webbing, it's low breaking point (7-11 kn depending on brand), and ease of cutting over an edge all make it inferior to even a small dynamic rope. I'd also be very interested to know what kind of belay was employed? I imagine it's hard to apply enough grip stength to 9/16 webbing to hold a fall.
It is bad risk management to implement a system that makes you feel like you are being safe but is actually incapable of handling the risk you are trying to manage.
In regards to rappelling the Grand... What happens on that day when only parties of two climb the Grand and they all assume they'll ride down on someone else's ropes and then a storm moves in just as they all summit? Perhaps they could all tie together their 40 foot pieces of webbing together and do a dulfersitz--better hang on tight! :wink:
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wilcox510
Nov 10, 2005, 3:00 PM
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i lived in jackson for 4 years, and knew of plenty of people who went up there with the plan of rapping on someone elses ropes. sure, you could get burnt, but in most cases there are other groups up there who are willing to give you a ride. i dont think its uncommon at all, you just have to be willing to downclimb if no one else is up there. congrats on your climb, its an amazing peak!
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olderic
Nov 10, 2005, 4:22 PM
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I'll confess that 15 years ago when I did the Grand in a day my partner and I did not bring a rope or any gear other then shoes AND harneses - obviously hoping to hitch a ride down. We were perfectly prepared to down climb the OS chimney but thought if it was convenient we would try and bum a ride. As it turns out a couple were up there for the first time and weren't sure where the rap was - I offered to show them and thread their ropes - you have to do a bit of an exposed traverse to get to the anchors for the big rap - all the while hoping they would offer us a chance to hop on their ropes which they promptly did. I don't think that experience was that unusual or unresponsible. But in my case I had previously done the Grand by several different routes and was somewhat familar with the terraine. I wouldn't go up there the first time without more gear though. So I don't think the bumming a ride on someone elses ropes was that bad a move on the part of the OP - but just about everthing else in his TR has "tool" written on it.
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price1869
Nov 10, 2005, 5:02 PM
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Well, here I am, still alive. Gee, I went climbing yesterday, and I even wore flip flops while I belayed my friend.
Come on, why does everything on a forum have to be a huge flame fest? From now on, my TR's will consist of pictures only, and if you want to flame them, go for shit.
Read some of the initial flamer's TRs. Going up Mt. Moran in an approaching storm? Holy shit, he didn't know every single inch of Angel's landing but he went up anyway. Climbing is dangerous. We all accept a certain level of risk. You don't have to accept mine.
The end.
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photon
Nov 10, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Gee I think Ill let some other person carry the rope 7 miles uphill for me because Im too lazy to do it myself? If someone would have pulled that on me when I did the Grand I would have said sorry dude, unless you want to pay me for "sherpa" services you'll have to downclimb chump.
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alpinerockfiend
Nov 10, 2005, 5:19 PM
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One thing I'm unclear about: you state that you "belayed" the double chimney- that means you either:
1) brought along conventional harnesses/biners/belay device or
2) stayed light and brought tied webbing harnesses and belayed off a biner or something or
3) did something else that probably wouldn't have worked
Right?
Why would you carry a protection system that probably wouldn't work? The double chimney is short and unexposed: it probably would've been more effective for the "belayer" to give the "leader" a spot! Anyway, next time you go up, solo the route and commit to the downclimb. Or carry a protection system that will actually work if you need it to!
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alpinerockfiend
Nov 10, 2005, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: Climbing is dangerous. We all accept a certain level of risk. You don't have to accept mine.
This is a true statement, but making the choice to carry webbing to protect a possible leader fall is illogical! I think that's what everyone is up in arms about. The logical choice in your situation would have been to simply solo the route and not fall.
Relax, people are just trying to prevent you from making this mistake again. Maybe you'll learn something from it.
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thomaskeefer
Nov 10, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Sometimes people who, even when presented with a perfectly reasonable set of reasons that their logic is flawed, refuse to change thier mind. For this chap, if he continues to climb on webbing, he had better never fall. No rock could withstand the impact forces generated by a near static fall onto a piece of gear.
As for the dude who would tell someone to go and hire a sherpa if asked to rap his lines from a romp that gets 40 ascents a day or more.. well, my friend, you are a dick!!
I actually have a TR written about this same route from that now infamous day back in 2k3 which eventually turned into a huge horror show.. it elaborates on some other issues concerning risk management.
http://www.kimberlykdesigns.com/new_page_1.htm
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agrauch
Nov 10, 2005, 9:34 PM
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In reply to: As for the dude who would tell someone to go and hire a sherpa if asked to rap his lines from a romp that gets 40 ascents a day or more.. well, my friend, you are a dick!!
Thought that was kinda funny myself. Guess that makes me a dick too.
In reply to: Gee, I went climbing yesterday, and I even wore flip flops while I belayed my friend.
Duuuuude! You coulda died. Flip flops aren't proper belaying footwear. Think about what coulda happened if your belayer fell. If you were lucky, you woulda only scraped the skin off the tops of your toes. Flip flops are not designed to withstand the forces of a dynamically belayed leader fall.
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angelaa
Nov 10, 2005, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: I actually have a TR written about this same route from that now infamous day back in 2k3 which eventually turned into a huge horror show.. it elaborates on some other issues concerning risk management. http://www.kimberlykdesigns.com/new_page_1.htm
WOW now Thats a trip report!
Glad you guys made it down OK! and glad you were able to assist!
Thanks for sharing your story!
In reply to: In reply to: As for the dude who would tell someone to go and hire a sherpa if asked to rap his lines from a romp that gets 40 ascents a day or more.. well, my friend, you are a dick!! Thought that was kinda funny myself. Guess that makes me a dick too.
me too :oops:
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