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walkonyourhands
Sep 4, 2007, 4:14 PM
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Lately, I read an article in Vertical Magazine about how leashless ice axes could replace regular tools in an alpine environment. Their main argument was that the melting ice all over the world would require more and more drytooling in alpine walls. I can see the benefits of using the new style to master sections of rock in formerly pure ice walls. But...How versatile do you think are the new tools? Would you climb a 65 degree couloir with Petzl Nomics? Is the BD Reactor a tool for such purposes (T-rated shaft, spur with 'biner hole, lightweight hammer)?
Alpinists, give me your opinion.
Thanks
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swaghole
Sep 4, 2007, 4:23 PM
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Nomics and Reactors dont' plunge very well for self arrest. That can be a big problem.
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JoshP
Sep 4, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Think this kind of tool leashless:
I can't see tools like the Nomic or reactor becoming the norm on the big mountains of the world.
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paulraphael
Sep 4, 2007, 10:32 PM
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there's also the issue of not having your tools as a belay if your feet blow.
it seems like a crazy idea to me, but every year more and more genuine alpine hard guys are climbing that way. they obviously know something (a lot of things) i don't!
in general, i don't think people are using radical leashless tools for routes with lots of moderate climbing. i think there's a video on the patagonia site that shows what house and anderson used on nanga parbat (they went leashless).
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kricir
Sep 4, 2007, 11:03 PM
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Leashless is totally the way to go. More and more alpiners who have converted to leashless for ice cragging have taken it into the mountains and enjoyed the benefits. Being able to free your hands to fiddle with gear/ shake out/ warm frozen hands, freedom of movement, so forth. But nomics and other such tools in the mountains? No way, not versatile enough. This is the system I’v been using for the mountains that is very similar to the system Steve and Vinnie used on the Rupal Face. The pinky rests slide up the shaft and are held in place with the elastic, and the tethers are homemade versions of the double spring, which grivel has discontinued.
For steep climbing
For plunging in snow
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skinner
Sep 5, 2007, 12:07 AM
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I take my leashes along, and am always using either them or an umbilical system similar to what kricir has. One reason is self arrest, without question I would not be here today if it wasn't for these. Another thing is that dropping a tool thousands of feet not only sucks, but could prove potentially disastrous. It's not like you can have your buddy lower you off to grab it.
And when it gets really frikken cold, I tend to rely on my leashes a little more so that I can keep my grip really relaxed and make sure I'm getting adequate blood flowing to my fingers. I want to keep them for awhile yet, the thought of having to pick my nose or scratch my ass with an ice screw doesn't sound all that appealing.
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paintrain
Sep 5, 2007, 3:03 AM
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I think this is the trickest thing out for leashless in the alpine enviro. I have only seen them in Europe so far. The handle slides up to pop out the pinky rest. When it is time to plunge again, slide handle up, flip in the pinky rest and slide the handle back down. The handle has a little button to lock it in place in either position.
I think it beats fiddling with the elastic trigger holder grivel makes. Cleaner and better engineered. Most grivel stuff is just bolted on as an afterthought it seems, though it can be functional.
pt
(This post was edited by paintrain on Sep 5, 2007, 3:13 AM)
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kricir
Sep 5, 2007, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: I think this is the trickest thing out for leashless in the alpine enviro. I have only seen them in Europe so far. The handle slides up to pop out the pinky rest. When it is time to plunge again, slide handle up, flip in the pinky rest and slide the handle back down. The handle has a little button to lock it in place in either position. I think it beats fiddling with the elastic trigger holder grivel makes. Cleaner and better engineered. Most grivel stuff is just bolted on as an afterthought it seems, though it can be functional. pt
whoa, those may be the most badass things I have ever seen, and since they are camp tools I assume they are crazy light. But I must say, grivel didn't make those elastic trigger holders, I did. Those are actually old modified charlet moser tools (pre petzel buy-out). The triggers also got a taste of my hacksaw to rid them of the annoying metal trigger before putting them on. One concern I have with any moveable piny rest system is; will it still work when it gets clogged with snow?
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paintrain
Sep 5, 2007, 3:48 PM
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kricir wrote: whoa, those may be the most badass things I have ever seen, and since they are camp tools I assume they are crazy light. But I must say, grivel didn't make those elastic trigger holders, I did. Those are actually old modified charlet moser tools (pre petzel buy-out). The triggers also got a taste of my hacksaw to rid them of the annoying metal trigger before putting them on. One concern I have with any moveable piny rest system is; will it still work when it gets clogged with snow?
I don't know if they will get clogged. The slide handle covers where the pinky rest comes out, but I am sure it is not a perfect cover.
Grivel is making a version of what you have mocked up (I like yours better). - Its called the slider and has an elastic retention strap to hold it on the head when you are plunging. Although I can't figure out if it is quick release or not. Seems you need tools to get it to slide up which makes it nearly worthless in my book.
PT
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the_climber
Sep 5, 2007, 6:39 PM
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paintrain wrote: I don't know if they will get clogged. The slide handle covers where the pinky rest comes out, but I am sure it is not a perfect cover. Grivel is making a version of what you have mocked up (I like yours better). - Its called the slider and has an elastic retention strap to hold it on the head when you are plunging. Although I can't figure out if it is quick release or not. Seems you need tools to get it to slide up which makes it nearly worthless in my book. PT
Grivel DID make a slider version a couple years ago and still makes it. And you can see it in the Video on the Patagonia site with Steve House. It is quick releace and slides up freely to be secured with a shock cord to the head of the tool or axe. It is kept in place on the bottom by the rivit holding in the spike. You only need tools to put it on initially.
As for the other grivel tools with 'added afterwards' you can say the same for BD, for CM/Petzl, for ... see the point?
Even with my Grivel Taa-k-oons I have removed the Horn on the bottom a few times when I know I would be doing an excessive amount of plunging, they worked good and I was glad I could remove it.
As for the Camp system, well in my books it's a good concept, but I'm not sure at how well it will work in the real world. If it's dry conditions, or conditions whick above freezing temp are there to melt the ice off the tool, then I see no real problems with it... But, in typical Canadian Rockies conditions both Winter Ice/Apline and Summer Alpine I can easily see the pinky rest either frozen out or in. It is indeed a trick tool and a good Idea, I'm just not sure how practical it would be in the real world (in my area at least).
For what it's worth, plunging (in general) is not as bad with a horn/pinky rest on the bottom of the tool as it is made out to be. Just remember speciallized tools are for speciallized tasks, they may work in general tasks, but not as well. Simple tools are often times the best route on simple ground.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Sep 5, 2007, 6:43 PM)
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reno
Sep 5, 2007, 6:41 PM
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skinner wrote: the thought of having to pick my nose or scratch my ass with an ice screw doesn't sound all that appealing.
It only seems kinky the first time.
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maldaly
Sep 5, 2007, 6:44 PM
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This question isn't new, my friends. Back in the '70s Yvon Chouinard was a leashless advocate for the alpine. Check out his book, Climbing Ice.Mal
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the_climber
Sep 5, 2007, 7:05 PM
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Mal's right.
Even up here in the Great Canadian Chossies (home of the best ice in the world... I may have a bias oppinion though) it all started with straight shaft tools and no wrist leashes... tethers are a different matter. Many of those early classic WI line were done without the benefit of leashes.
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paintrain
Sep 5, 2007, 10:05 PM
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True. The poor carpenter blames his tools.
Lots of hard stuff climbed prior to bent shafts, Zed handles, and in some cases leashes. Its all about hanging on and moving up.
pt
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skinner
Sep 6, 2007, 1:13 AM
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the_climber wrote: Mal's right. Even up here in the Great Canadian Chossies (home of the best ice in the world... I may have a bias oppinion though) it all started with straight shaft tools and no wrist leashes... tethers are a different matter. Many of those early classic WI line were done without the benefit of leashes.
Straight shaft, no leashes, no tethers.
until shortly after Laurie Skreslet popped off of Bourgeau and was wheeling around in a leg cast while his tool remained firmly planted from where he fell (until retrieved by a Japanese party?) Suddenly people started thinking of ways to attacth themselves to their tools.
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gargrantuan
Sep 7, 2007, 5:52 PM
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the early climbers may not have been using leashes but they were attaching etriers and aiding up the ice instead of climbing it free. henry barber did the cilley/barber on katahdin leashless though.
as far as i am concerned, leashless most definitely has its place in the alpine. i prefer to be leashless if i am seconding because the top rope and leashes is clusterfuck and i don't have to worry about falling. i also prefer to be leashless on less than 70 degree ice because it is just easier. i wouldn't use a nomic or a reactor because you can't plunge but more because carrying the nomic by the head is painful and uncomfortable.
that said, i still like wearing leashes if i am leading steeper ice because it is easier to place gear when you can relax your hand and balance with the leash. it seems like most of the 'hardmen' i know are starting to use umbilical cords and going leashless on routes like the Andromeda Strain but i don't climb that hard yet and if i did, i'd probably want the security that a leash provides. i can't stand using leashes drytooling though, so maybe one day i'll convert.
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adeptus
Sep 12, 2007, 9:28 AM
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cclarke
Sep 12, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Anyone have suggestions on how to add umbilical cords to Quark Ergos?
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anykineclimb
Sep 12, 2007, 3:09 PM
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cclarke wrote: Anyone have suggestions on how to add umbilical cords to Quark Ergos?
do you tape your handles? If so, add the cord beneath the tape.
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Crimsonghost
Sep 12, 2007, 5:52 PM
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cclarke wrote: Anyone have suggestions on how to add umbilical cords to Quark Ergos?
Or drill a hole in the base of the handle and thread a loop of cord through. Not sure if there's metal inside the grip though?
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cclarke
Sep 12, 2007, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: Or drill a hole in the base of the handle and thread a loop of cord through. Not sure if there's metal inside the grip though?
I haven't felt the need to use any tape on the handles so this is what I was thinking about doing. Naturally I am a little hesitant to start drilling holes in my nice tools . . .
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cclarke
Sep 13, 2007, 1:42 PM
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Turns out the plastic handles of the Ergo Quark are held together with screws around a metal plate that runs to the end of the pinky rest. After unscrewing the handle, I was able to put a cord loop over the metal piece at the pinky rest and use an exacto knife to make slots in the top and bottom of the pinky rest part of the handle for the cord to pass through so the handle would screw back together all the way.
The loop is out of the way of the grip and doesn't cover the small metal teeth at the base of the tool.
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paintrain
Sep 13, 2007, 3:57 PM
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Picture please.
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cclarke
Sep 13, 2007, 5:06 PM
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I'll try to post some tonight.
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smallquark2.JPG
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