|
Dodgy_Lurker
Apr 10, 2008, 5:52 PM
Post #1 of 34
(7955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 25
|
I've had conflicting advice as how to rig the TR anchor of a sport climb.
"Rock climbing: mastering basic skills By Craig Luebben" says do this:
"Climbing: from gym to crag: building skills for real rock By S. Peter Lewis, Dan Cauthorn" says do this:
So, which one is correct?
It's not the locking biner that concerns me (I'll use one) but the orientations of said biners.
I've asked around on this one, but the locking versus unlocking biner setup gets people off the point sometime, so let me clarify:
Which is preferable?
PICTURE 1
or,
PICTURE 2
I vote the second one, but any advice would be mucho appreciated.
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Apr 10, 2008, 6:14 PM
Post #2 of 34
(7943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
If you're using at least one locker having the gates opposite and opposed isn't that important. By running both gates away from the rock the rope won't be scissored between the opposite facing offset D biners. The friction will be less as will wear and tear on your gear.
If you don't use at least one locking biner then option 2 is preferred because the gates would be opposite and opposed.
|
|
|
|
|
Dodgy_Lurker
Apr 10, 2008, 7:00 PM
Post #3 of 34
(7920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 25
|
In reply to: by running both gates away from the rock the rope won't be scissored between the opposite facing offset D biners. The friction will be less as will wear and tear on your gear.
Good point - I also like that the rock surface rubs against the backs of the biners, not the gates. Also, the rope hangs parallel to the rock but in Picture 2 (opposite/opposed) the rope runs perpendicular to the rock maybe increasing friction.
But, and there's always a 'but', someone else pointed out to me that:
In reply to: running both gates away from the rock the rope with the two lockers side-by-side is bad as sometimes the locking sleeves will rub against one another and unscrew. Better to oppose them, or use an opposed non-locker instead.
Seems like there's pros and cons to both, but my gut says that Picture 2 (opposite/opposed) is probably optimal despite all this.
Thanks!
.
|
|
|
|
|
deltav
Apr 10, 2008, 7:06 PM
Post #4 of 34
(7914 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597
|
Go with what Luebben says
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 10, 2008, 7:07 PM
Post #5 of 34
(7914 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I prefer the second for ease and availability of non-locking draws on my sport rack, but seriously, neither is going to kill you.
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Apr 10, 2008, 7:15 PM
Post #6 of 34
(7904 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
There is no right answer in anchors. You have to develop a tool set and apply what you know to assemble a safe anchor. These 'Which is better?' questions are useless without a context. I guess learning what the right questions are is part of the process.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Apr 10, 2008, 7:31 PM
Post #7 of 34
(7881 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
For a bolt hanger that causes the biners to lay flat against the rock, I like option #2 though I might have the gates facing outward as well as inward. For a bolt hanger that causes the biner to be perpendicular to the rock I like option 1 to keep the gate away from the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Apr 10, 2008, 8:23 PM
Post #8 of 34
(7847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
don't mean to be an ass, but the very first picture from craig's book is the same as the one below it. you've shown us two pictures of the same setup (not including lockers)
look at how the rope is running and the direction of the spine and the lack of kinks in the webbing you'll see you could bring them together to be the same as the second picture
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Apr 10, 2008, 8:29 PM
Post #9 of 34
(7836 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
In the second one the gates are opposite and opposed; in the first they are neither.
|
|
|
|
|
Dodgy_Lurker
Apr 10, 2008, 8:47 PM
Post #10 of 34
(7817 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 25
|
altelis, got me worried for a second, by the two setups are definitely different, hence me questioning which is 'correct'.
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Apr 10, 2008, 9:05 PM
Post #11 of 34
(7797 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
yea, yea, got it wrong....sorry
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 10, 2008, 9:16 PM
Post #12 of 34
(7787 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
The gates should always be opposed, even if you're using lockers, since locking biners don't always stay locked. Preferably the gates should face away from each other, not toward each other, as in your second photo. It's too easy for the draws to clip into each other when the gates are facing each other, which can result in the rope running weirdly through through the biners.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 10, 2008, 9:18 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Dodgy_Lurker
Apr 10, 2008, 10:51 PM
Post #13 of 34
(7745 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 25
|
jt512 wrote: Preferably the gates should face away from each other, not toward each other, as in your second photo. It's too easy for the draws to clip into each other when the gates are facing each other, which can result in the rope running weirdly through through the biners. Jay
I thought this was BS for a second and had a few moments of confusion playing with some QDs, but you're correct.
To, confirm (using my photoshop-fu) is this what you mean?
altelis wrote: yea, yea, got it wrong....sorry
No worries! 
Ona seperate note, how wide can images be before they get scaled down? I notice my images are getting shrunk just a little (I've looked in 'posting rules' but see no mention...)
.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 10, 2008, 11:04 PM
Post #14 of 34
(7737 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Dodgy_Lurker wrote: jt512 wrote: Preferably the gates should face away from each other, not toward each other, as in your second photo. It's too easy for the draws to clip into each other when the gates are facing each other, which can result in the rope running weirdly through through the biners. Jay I thought this was BS for a second and had a few moments of confusion playing with some QDs, but you're correct. To, confirm (using my photoshop-fu) is this what you mean? Yes. Jay
|
|
|
|
|
rockvaulter
Apr 11, 2008, 12:53 AM
Post #15 of 34
(7679 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 128
|
I have a question/comment, not to sound like an idiot, arrogant, or ignorant...But does it really matter? Opposite and opposed is always a given for non-locking beaners, or just beaners period for that matter. It should be habit. But making locking beaner opposite and opposed it just...well OCD. I say this because people should be checking their anchor every climb (but never above as its a directional load...if its top rop with shuts.) Can you REALLY unscrew TWO locking beaners in a matter of one climb...let alone a short climb since its Top Rope (so what...100 feet at the most with a 60 meter rope.) I know my comment does not answere the question, but double redudancy should be built in all systems and checked as often as possible. So in reality, if someone checks their anchors as they should...it shouldn't matter.
Sorry for the rant.
Edited: because of my extreme underestamtion of meters and feet.
(This post was edited by rockvaulter on Apr 11, 2008, 12:58 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 11, 2008, 1:28 AM
Post #16 of 34
(7651 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
seems like that first photo (Luebbens) has the potential to put twists in your rope.
I use #2.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Apr 11, 2008, 8:22 AM
Post #17 of 34
(7593 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
jt512 wrote: The gates should always be opposed, even if you're using lockers, since locking biners don't always stay locked. Preferably the gates should face away from each other, not toward each other, as in your second photo. It's too easy for the draws to clip into each other when the gates are facing each other, which can result in the rope running weirdly through through the biners. Jay
that was my first thought when i saw the pic.
i use the second option, but in such a way that the gates are facing away from each other.
and if you are using locker, opposite and opposed is not really such a worry. i dont use lockers at all when i set up an anchor like that
|
|
|
|
|
Dodgy_Lurker
Apr 11, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #18 of 34
(7516 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 25
|
It's interesting that people have found issues with both books versions:
- Luebben's 1st picture because the biners are not opposed, may kink the rope a bit, and lead the rope perpendicular to the wall, and
- Lewis/Cauthorn's 2nd picture because whilst the biners are opposite they are not opposed.
(Note, I may have mixed up the meanings of 'opposite' and 'opposed' but the mental gymnastics of figuring out the difference is making my brain hurt)
'tis true then that there is no 'exact' way of doing anything in climbing, more of a 'preferred' way (preferably; do not fall from great heights onto spiky rocks)
Thanks for everyone's input!
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Apr 11, 2008, 6:18 PM
Post #19 of 34
(7501 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
Dodgy_Lurker wrote: - Lewis/Cauthorn's 2nd picture because whilst the biners are opposite they are not opposed. (Note, I may have mixed up the meanings of 'opposite' and 'opposed' but the mental gymnastics of figuring out the difference is making my brain hurt) 'tis true then that there is no 'exact' way of doing anything in climbing, more of a 'preferred' way (preferably; do not fall from great heights onto spiky rocks) Thanks for everyone's input!
They are opposite and opposed. The gates are on different sides of the configuration, but if they weren't they open in different directions, not in parallel. That's opposite and opposed. And I don't remember which is which either. Bottom line is that if you hang them from the same point and open the gates at the same time, the gates cross when open instead of being parallel to each other.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 11, 2008, 6:28 PM
Post #20 of 34
(7493 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Dodgy_Lurker wrote: It's interesting that people have found issues with both books versions: - Luebben's 1st picture because the biners are not opposed, may kink the rope a bit, and lead the rope perpendicular to the wall, and
In the first picture, the problem with the rope is that it's clipped through the biners strangely. This will twist the draws, if not the rope. Does Luebben actually recommend clipping this way? It might not be a bad idea with lockers; it would help keep the gates of the biners away from the rock.
In reply to: - Lewis/Cauthorn's 2nd picture because whilst the biners are opposite they are not opposed. (Note, I may have mixed up the meanings of 'opposite' and 'opposed' but the mental gymnastics of figuring out the difference is making my brain hurt)
Don't sweat it. No one really knows the difference. Half the terms we use were made up 30 years ago by John Long. "Opposite and opposed" is probably one of them, and I'll bet Largo can't remember which was supposed to be which.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 11, 2008, 6:30 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Apr 11, 2008, 7:00 PM
Post #21 of 34
(7478 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
Opposite = gates on opposite sides when vertically aligned
Opposing = gates criss-cross when both are opened, regardless of whether the gates are on the opposite or same side.
Obsessed = this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
rangerrob
Apr 12, 2008, 11:25 AM
Post #22 of 34
(7409 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2003
Posts: 641
|
Next up.....how to tie your shoelaces safely
RR
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 12, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #23 of 34
(7386 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
acorneau wrote: Opposing = gates criss-cross when both are opened, regardless of whether the gates are on the opposite or same side.
I don't get this one.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Apr 12, 2008, 4:50 PM
Post #24 of 34
(7340 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
dingus wrote: acorneau wrote: Opposing = gates criss-cross when both are opened, regardless of whether the gates are on the opposite or same side. I don't get this one.
It's simple, really. If the gates are on opposite sides of each other, then they form an X when opened. If you roll one biner over so that the gates are on the same side, they will still form an X when opened.
If they don't form an X in both configurations, then they are not opposing, just opposite.
Grab a couple of biners and try it for yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Apr 12, 2008, 5:43 PM
Post #25 of 34
(7322 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
rangerrob wrote: Next up.....how to tie your shoelaces safely RR
Scary isn't it. I'm 75% self taught, and have read everything I can get my hands on. I now lead trad, albeit at moderate grades, and do it safely. I know how to self rescue all but the grimmest multipitch situations. But these books are GUIDELINES people, not rules written in stone (get it!). I seriously wonder what some of these people will do when they encounter a situation they didn't "read about in a book". Common sense has to take over at some point.....
(This post was edited by dynosore on Apr 12, 2008, 5:44 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
