forgive me if this has been hashed out. i couldnt dig up a similar thread in the archives, but its probably there.

ive climbed thousands of pitches outside, caught people in surprise falls with one hand in my backpack, belayed high-maintenance sporties on their projects. and i think a lot about safety. im convinced the way i belay is truly safe, for what its worth. and honestly its nothing special.

but i know that its a far cry from the gym-style thing i see at most plastic joints. ill readily (maybe even with a touch of pride) admit that ive only got ten gym days under my belt in as many years, but i clearly remember failing a TR belay test once, and the specific technique they were recommending.

so, it looks like im going back to the gym soon. i can pass the test, i remember that magical gym technique just fine (even though i only use it for the belay test). im just curious how on earth the gym folk feel their method is safer?

the standard tube-device gym belay: starting from a locked off position, and im right handed. say i have my left hand on the rope to the climber, my right hand locked off below the device and low. i pull in slack, and then- the squirmy bit:

i bring my right lock hand up to the high left hand. my left hand grabs both ropes, allowing me to slide my right hand down the rope. then i lock off low again, right the right.

but frankly, this strikes me as ridiculous.

if the climber falls when i am in that transition period, where the two ropes are parallel and high, there is precious little friction in the device. obviously, this shoudlnt matter with a grigri, with a light climber, with a hefty belayer with gloves, with many toprope situations in fact, but why expose the system to this vulnerable moment at all? if the gyms insist on this inane static-transition thing to adjust the hands after pulling in slack, why not do it lower in a higher-friction position?

so ill keep passing belay tests, and ill keep belaying the way i belay, and ill keep catching falls. but anyone have some insider info? the meaning of all this?

you are right, I don't think its a gym thing as the gyms i have been to teach the right way "yours",

And jay i know you are an experianced climber, but i think a climber should be locked off as much of the time as you can (with out short ropping them), keeping the rope above the belay just does not make sense, i know if you pay attention it should not matter. SO i guess its just personal

you are right, I don't think its a gym thing as the gyms i have been to teach the right way "yours",

the standard tube-device gym belay: starting from a locked off position, and im right handed. say i have my left hand on the rope to the climber, my right hand locked off below the device and low. i pull in slack, and then- the squirmy bit:

i bring my right lock hand up to the high left hand. my left hand grabs both ropes, allowing me to slide my right hand down the rope. then i lock off low again, right the right.

Sounds like the way me and hundreds of thousands of American climbers have been belaying since, literally, before the invention of the belay device, except we don't start from the lock-off position. IMO, the rope should only be locked off if the climber falls.

Jay

That's precisely the origin of the pull-pinch-slide belay, the sitting hip belay (Munter off the harness as well). Where the usual catch position is with both ropes in front of you.

The problem with keeping the rope locked off is that . . . well . . . it's locked off. You can't easily adjust the amount of rope out, and you give a static belay by default. Instead, if you keep the brake side of the rope in a neutral position—say 90 degrees from the climber's rope—you can easily make adjustments and the belay is dynamic by default.

Jay

Biil7, I basically learned to rock climb by sitting at the top of a cliff giving my partner a hip belay. I caught countless unannounced falls that way and never once needed to - or in fact had time to - bend the rope across in front of me. Just pretty much pressed it down over the brake side thigh.

I've never heard the straight-arm thing that Bill is talking about, but to hold a high-fall-factor fall, bringing the rope as far as possible around the front of the body is crucial.

If you have it handy, you could check the current edition of Freedom of the Hills - not that what it sez is the end all of the discussion.

Bill

I was always taught both palms up (learned in the late '80's). Let hand (I'm right handed btw) on the end going to the climber to control the feed and take, and right hand on the brake. Using an cupped but open left pinky to hold and guide the brake and feed parallel and ensuring no danger hanging the brake line during a fall. If a belayer is properly attentive, he/she should be able to lock in a split second. This made feeds and takes most controlled and smooth to me. This double palms down constant lock actually makes me feel less secure and in control. I know it sounds silly, but it just doesn't feel right.

Is my previously learned method now considered archaic and dangerous?

It seems to me that you hear about ground falls, serious injury and death much more often now. I suppose this is likely just directly proportional to the amount of people climbing these days versus then.... not that it wasn't already getting crowded at crags like NRG during those years.

i did, actually. the 6th edition (my latest) has no discussion of how to use a tuber.

I can't prove it but I think that the accident rate is higher now than it was in the pre-gym era. I suspect that part of the reason is how poorly trained in belaying most gym climbers are. How much time did you spend learning to belay when you started climbing?

Jay