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CrazyPetie
Sep 30, 2009, 4:46 AM
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What exactly does it mean when climbers call a move or sequence "low percentage" or "high percentage'?
I always thought that if it was a low percentage move, that means your feet hold a lower percentage of your weight. But i'm not sure.
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Carnage
Sep 30, 2009, 4:54 AM
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it usually means that even if you know what you're doing (perhaps you know the beta perfect) there is still a pretty low chance you'll get the move.
ex. dyno to a sloper pinch. i know where i have to put my hand on the sloper, i know where my feet need to be, i know everything i need to know to get the move. i try the move 10 times, but i only stick it once. next day when i try the problem it takes me another 10 tries to get the move.
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CrazyPetie
Sep 30, 2009, 5:03 AM
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ah that makes sense. Thanks!
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 1, 2009, 1:43 PM
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Man, I hate it when someone gives a good answer the first time! BORING!
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sungam
Oct 1, 2009, 1:50 PM
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huh, I have never encountered that phrase.
Seems to make sense, I guess - Though I don't think would use it.
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shockabuku
Oct 1, 2009, 2:11 PM
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sungam wrote: huh, I have never encountered that phrase. Seems to make sense, I guess - Though I don't think would use it.
Unfortunately, I encounter experience that phrase a lot!
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johnwesely
Oct 1, 2009, 3:08 PM
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shockabuku wrote: sungam wrote: huh, I have never encountered that phrase. Seems to make sense, I guess - Though I don't think would use it. Unfortunately, I encounter experience that phrase a lot!
Dude, It is such a hard move, very low percentage brah.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 1, 2009, 3:18 PM
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hmmm...for me, low percentage has never been used for a specific move. It tends to be used in conjunction with the entire sport, or my luck with women. Sometimes I can't tell the difference.
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CrazyPetie
Oct 1, 2009, 4:24 PM
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I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term.
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2009, 4:53 PM
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CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term.
It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time.
In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it.
GO
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dan2see
Oct 1, 2009, 5:02 PM
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cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: ...In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO Maybe it is subjective. I use the words "easy" and "hard". I'm very aware how those "hard" moves got "easier" as my own skill level improved with experience.
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2009, 5:41 PM
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dan2see wrote: cracklover wrote: ...In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO Maybe it is subjective. I use the words "easy" and "hard". I'm very aware how those "hard" moves got "easier" as my own skill level improved with experience.
I fixed your cheesetitting. And no, unlike "easy" and "hard" it's not an entirely subjective term. That was my point.
GO
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CrazyPetie
Oct 1, 2009, 6:14 PM
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cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term. It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time. In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO
I agree with you. But i also think the term is over used, and people might say it just to make excuses to why they're not doing the move every time. In my mind, even if a move is technically "low percentage", i'm not going to call it that because it will make that move seem even harder. A hard move is a hard move, we're not doing statistics here.
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2009, 6:37 PM
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CrazyPetie wrote: cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term. It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time. In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO I agree with you. But i also think the term is over used, and people might say it just to make excuses to why they're not doing the move every time. In my mind, even if a move is technically "low percentage", i'm not going to call it that because it will make that move seem even harder. A hard move is a hard move, we're not doing statistics here.
i used to think that low percentage was a joke. until i climbed x-15. the crux on that route is low percentage because it has nothing to do with skill, precision, or power. you could climb that route 100 times and i'd bet good money you'd only get that move on a handful of them, no matter how good you are.
the crux move is a moderate angle slab move under a roof. the trick is that there are literally no hands and the move is a 4' step across to a edge for your left foot. (you have to step over a streak of lichen). my partner fell twice before tensioning over and i fell out of it and was unable to get back on. we both thought we had it before our right foot popped due to the length of the move.
at any rate, moves like that seem low percentage to me- where skill and practice really aren't going to help you- luck is what makes it happen.
of course, i dont climb very hard, so maybe low percentage has more meaning in the realm of 5.12 and up.
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2009, 6:57 PM
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CrazyPetie wrote: cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term. It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time. In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO I agree with you. But i also think the term is over used, and people might say it just to make excuses to why they're not doing the move every time. In my mind, even if a move is technically "low percentage", i'm not going to call it that because it will make that move seem even harder. A hard move is a hard move, we're not doing statistics here.
That's an excellent idea. You should also erase phrases like "desperate crimp", "monster dyno", and "blind reach" from your vocabulary. Once you get to the point where you call every hold a friendly jug-bucket, you'll be climbing 5.15 no problem!
Anyway, most folks I've heard use the term in context: "a low percentage move for me" - acknowledging the fact that the term includes a subjective component.
GO
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shockabuku
Oct 1, 2009, 7:03 PM
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cracklover wrote: dan2see wrote: cracklover wrote: ...In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO Maybe it is subjective. I use the words "easy" and "hard". I'm very aware how those "hard" moves got "easier" as my own skill level improved with experience. I fixed your cheesetitting. And no, unlike "easy" and "hard" it's not an entirely subjective term. That was my point. GO
Precision and power are relative. So is high and low percentage. What for me is a low percentage move is relatively easy for 5.13 climber.
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2009, 7:34 PM
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shockabuku wrote: cracklover wrote: dan2see wrote: cracklover wrote: ...In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO Maybe it is subjective. I use the words "easy" and "hard". I'm very aware how those "hard" moves got "easier" as my own skill level improved with experience. I fixed your cheesetitting. And no, unlike "easy" and "hard" it's not an entirely subjective term. That was my point. GO Precision and power are relative. So is high and low percentage. What for me is a low percentage move is relatively easy for 5.13 climber.
Sure, that's why in all my posts I've said that it's not *just* subjective. Of course there's a subjective component.
GO
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jt512
Oct 1, 2009, 8:08 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term. It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time. In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO I agree with you. But i also think the term is over used, and people might say it just to make excuses to why they're not doing the move every time. In my mind, even if a move is technically "low percentage", i'm not going to call it that because it will make that move seem even harder. A hard move is a hard move, we're not doing statistics here. i used to think that low percentage was a joke. until i climbed x-15. the crux on that route is low percentage because it has nothing to do with skill, precision, or power. you could climb that route 100 times and i'd bet good money you'd only get that move on a handful of them, no matter how good you are. the crux move is a moderate angle slab move under a roof. the trick is that there are literally no hands and the move is a 4' step across to a edge for your left foot. (you have to step over a streak of lichen). my partner fell twice before tensioning over and i fell out of it and was unable to get back on. we both thought we had it before our right foot popped due to the length of the move. at any rate, moves like that seem low percentage to me- where skill and practice really aren't going to help you- luck is what makes it happen. of course, i dont climb very hard, so maybe low percentage has more meaning in the realm of 5.12 and up.
There are no moves that are inherently low percentage. And there are no moves that involve luck. Luck implies that the conditions change randomly. This does not happen in rock climbing, except for holds breaking, and maybe unpredictable changes in the weather.
A low percentage move is simply one that you don't know how to do well enough to do it consistently.
Jay
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cracklover
Oct 1, 2009, 8:31 PM
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jt512 wrote: A low percentage move is simply one that you don't know how to do well enough to do it consistently. Jay
While this is *true*, it's not the whole truth. Some moves are thuggy, while others require precision. I've never heard someone describe a thuggish move at the edge of their ability as "low percentage" even if, technically, it is. A powerful long move off a small hold to a big juggy rail, for example, may take a lot of attempts, but I've never heard someone call it a "low percentage" move.
Basically, I've only ever heard it used in a move requiring you to hit the hold exactly right, in body position, hand position, and momentum, and the angle of approach makes this hard to do. Both Vegastradguy's and Carnage's examples fall squarely into this category.
And of course, in addition, it has to be near the edge of your personal ability level.
GO
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olderic
Oct 1, 2009, 8:50 PM
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jt512 wrote: [There are no moves that are inherently low percentage. And there are no moves that involve luck. Luck implies that the conditions change randomly. This does not happen in rock climbing, except for holds breaking, and maybe unpredictable changes in the weather. A low percentage move is simply one that you don't know how to do well enough to do it consistently. Jay
Heat and humidity. Sun in the eyes. Sure these are things that are not totally random and you could argue that I can wait until conditions are right. But if I have to wait for an updraft and for the moon to be closer to the earth to give me a strong pull - then that move is going to vary in percentage for me no matter how well I know how to do it.
See out in the real world where real climbing takes place - not some over graded sport choss piles in the middle of a desert junk yard - the weather does change. Frequently.
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kriso9tails
Oct 1, 2009, 9:10 PM
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In general, these aren't things that should be come the sole determining factor in whether you stuck a specific move or blew off instead. Moves do not suddenly become impossible, or even fundamentally different with a change in humidity. If you require less humid conditions to stick a given move, arguably, you haven't developed true control on that move.
While unpredictable whether can be described as bad luck for climbing in general, it's not bad luck specific to any single move. It's not like isolated thunderstorms are going to frequently pop up around a single crimper on a route.
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Bag11s
Oct 1, 2009, 9:16 PM
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This is pretty nitpicky, but- I kind of agree with both of these comments, but usually say "that's a low percentage move for me" when talking about something on a line of one grade that has one of these tricky items somewhere on it, but its not the hardest crux, but still I know I could easily come off of that bit if I'm not super focused and perfectly fit for it right there and then.
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ryanb
Oct 1, 2009, 9:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: cracklover wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I dont like the term now that i know what it means. It just puts negative thoughts in your head about the move permenantly. I thought it was a technical term, but its really a subjective term. It's not just a meaningless term that signifies a hard move. It's used for moves where multiple difficulties need to be surmounted all at once. Like a move requiring both huge power and great precision - two things that by their nature are very hard to have go together. Things like a dynamic move to a small hold that you need to hit in exactly the right place, with your body in the right position, and your hand in the right configuration. You can get most of those factors right, and still come off. Every one must be perfect all at the same time. In other words, it has a real, and a useful meaning, it's not just subjective. Like it or lump it. GO I agree with you. But i also think the term is over used, and people might say it just to make excuses to why they're not doing the move every time. In my mind, even if a move is technically "low percentage", i'm not going to call it that because it will make that move seem even harder. A hard move is a hard move, we're not doing statistics here. i used to think that low percentage was a joke. until i climbed x-15. the crux on that route is low percentage because it has nothing to do with skill, precision, or power. you could climb that route 100 times and i'd bet good money you'd only get that move on a handful of them, no matter how good you are. the crux move is a moderate angle slab move under a roof. the trick is that there are literally no hands and the move is a 4' step across to a edge for your left foot. (you have to step over a streak of lichen). my partner fell twice before tensioning over and i fell out of it and was unable to get back on. we both thought we had it before our right foot popped due to the length of the move. at any rate, moves like that seem low percentage to me- where skill and practice really aren't going to help you- luck is what makes it happen. of course, i dont climb very hard, so maybe low percentage has more meaning in the realm of 5.12 and up. There are no moves that are inherently low percentage. And there are no moves that involve luck. Luck implies that the conditions change randomly. This does not happen in rock climbing, except for holds breaking, and maybe unpredictable changes in the weather. A low percentage move is simply one that you don't know how to do well enough to do it consistently. Jay
I have generally heard the term low percentage applied to technical moves on granite, and feel it is often used aptly. Part of this may have to do with "random" or hard to predict/control things that effect friction (temperature, humidity, dirt on holds, shoe wear) or balance (gastrointestinal well being, small shakes and muscle tremors).
While I have no doubt that a true granite technician may be able to control, avoid or work around a number of these things. I also find that there is some element of chance in attempting routes truly at ones limit...I think most of us have redpointed routes we can't fire on command.
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hafilax
Oct 1, 2009, 9:36 PM
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'Low percentage move' sounds like code for 'sandbagged crux' or at least one that's tricky to figure out onsite (onsight? Which one is it?). There's one move on the route that could shut you down on your redpoint attempt. If you're solid at the grade it shouldn't be an issue therefore it's probably a sandbag.
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ryanb
Oct 1, 2009, 10:02 PM
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hafilax wrote: 'Low percentage move' sounds like code for 'sandbagged crux' or at least one that's tricky to figure out onsite (onsight? Which one is it?). There's one move on the route that could shut you down on your redpoint attempt. If you're solid at the grade it shouldn't be an issue therefore it's probably a sandbag.
Good point, but there are moves that felt easy the time I red pointed the route but caused me to 1-2 hang the route numerous times. The dicey high step mantle on "Climax Control" at index springs to mind.
Now that I think about it, dicey 5.11 high step mantels (aka index levitation) in general tend to be low percentage for me. Like the type where you have to kick your foot up to a small sloping edge just past the limit of your passive flexibility and then make a dynamic hip thrust while pulling on terrible hand holds to get your weight on top of the foot so you can leg press and palm your way up the wall into a standing position where, with luck you might be able to clip before your foot blows...
If you nail everything perfectly, the holds are cool, clean and dry and there is a slight but not to strong breeze going its a walk in the park, but if one thing is off you slip and take the tumble...
Mmm slab...man I hope some day I am solid at those.
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