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froggy
Nov 7, 2001, 11:44 PM
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Hi all - I don't really want to bring up this argument again - there have been enough sport/trad arguments. I just want to know what you guys/gals think about this.
Should a Sport Climber that climbs 5.12 be compared to a Trad climber that climbs 5.12?
Trad climbers tend to stay at or below their limit while Sport climbers push their limits.
I just started leading and when I get on Sport routes there is way less to think about. I feel comfortable leading in the 5.10 range Sport Climbing, but when it comes to trad a 5.6 scares me. I also have a lot of friends that mainly sport climb and they put down trad climbers that climb 'not as well as them' but is there a true comparison?
Should Sport climbers be counted in the same league?
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rrrADAM
Nov 7, 2001, 11:55 PM
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Sure, you rate a climb by it's hardest move. If you TR a sport 12 or a trad 12 they should feel the same.
Trad just requires more stamina , both physical and mental, to take the time to set pro on an 'R' rated climb, and be able to climb above it.
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aulwes
Nov 8, 2001, 12:05 AM
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I think they should keep the ratings the same, it's the same climb 5-10b trad or a 5.10b sport. People are going to know that Trad climbing is going to take diffrent abilities to climb. It would make things too complicated.
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froggy
Nov 8, 2001, 12:05 AM
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I guess my question is..
Should a 5.12 Sport climber get bragging rights over a 5.10+ Trad Climber?
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wigglestick
Nov 8, 2001, 12:16 AM
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I don't think it is an issue of bragging rights. Sport climbers should realize that just because they can climb 5.12 sport routes that does not translate in rock climbing supremacy. They are different styles that require different skills. In my opinion if people only climb routes with bolts then they are missing out on a whole different aspect of the sport.
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rrrADAM
Nov 8, 2001, 12:54 AM
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Let him spray, trad climbers know that he'd just pee himself on an 11 trad climb.
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munckee
Nov 8, 2001, 1:03 AM
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I agree. Can you imagine the trouble that would be caused if you started a system in which you had to equivalate a 5.12 sport climb with a 5.10 trad climb or something of the sort. I think that part of differentiating is just knowing what you climb trad and/or sport at.
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aulwes
Nov 8, 2001, 1:38 AM
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If they made a diffrent system for sport and trad, would there have to be a diffrent rating for top-ropping? cause ya know its the easiest.??
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munckee
Nov 8, 2001, 1:42 AM
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Yeah, but then you have toproping where you set your own anchor vs. toproping where there are bolted anchors, so you really need two rating systems for toproping!
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pianomahnn
Nov 8, 2001, 1:48 AM
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A few simple words...
"Bragging rights are for losers."
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rrrADAM
Nov 8, 2001, 1:50 AM
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It's all climbing, whether it's on Lead(trad or sport), TR, Rock, Gym, Builder, or Boulder. A 5.11c move is a 5.11c regardless of what style you are climbing. The only difference is bouldering now has a different scale, but it still rates the difficulty of the moves. Not the 'scaryness', or the word I use, 'pucker-factor'.
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hardcoredana
Nov 8, 2001, 1:53 AM
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I don't think ratings should be differentiated based on trad/top rope/sport. It would the system way too complex.
And when it comes to bragging rights, most of the educated sport climbers I know who climb 5.12 are still impressed when they come across someone who climbs 5.10+ on trad. And besides, climbing shouldn't be about comparing yourself to other people, it should be about challenging yourself and having a good time. Just my $.02
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talons05
Nov 8, 2001, 2:04 AM
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I think the ratings should be the same, just expect a little extra challenge from a trad lead.
AW
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greatgarbanzo
Nov 8, 2001, 5:15 AM
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Trad climbing should feel a little harder than sport climbing simply because you are doing the same hard moves AND you have to stop to place the pro...
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trillium
Nov 8, 2001, 6:07 AM
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I think that the grading system is there so that a climber can gain an approximation of what to expect before he/she attempts the climb. It is independent of climb "type" whether it be sport, trad. or TR, and is a gage, not a diploma.
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darkside
Nov 8, 2001, 9:56 AM
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Whether 5.4 or 5.14 a climb is as hard as it is. This rating system is to rate the hardest or overall difficulty level. The second system people seem to be forgetting here is one that rates pro. Almost all bolted routes have good pro although I've seen some that should carry the R rating. With trad the pro can be rated with the R or X rating but even one with good pro can be difficult to get a stance to place gear. Most climbers recognize this and lead trad at a lower grade than sport not because the climbs are harder but because of this mindgame aspect. The darkside if you will.
Although I'm an ex-Brit, I started climbing after moving to Canada so I'm not familiar with the rating system there but it does strike me that it rates both the hardest move and other factors, therefore might it not be a better system. Maybe any Brits out there can shed some more light on this?
At least when the YDS rates climbs according to difficulty I can evaluate them for myself according to whether the pro is bolts or gear.
Now lets throw another little twist out there. If there were two systems for trad or sport, which would be used for mixed routes?
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tangboy
Nov 8, 2001, 3:08 PM
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Looks like enough people have already replied to this, but i still feel i need to put in my two pennies... trad is harder (got more gear, longer time to place the gear and clip in) sport frees you to do moves. thats all.
tang
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wigglestick
Nov 8, 2001, 4:06 PM
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I would disagree that climbing is climbing because traditional (crack) climbing and sport climbing require different skills. Sport climbing requires more gymnastic movements while trad climbing requires more calculation and is alot more painful. I remember hearing a story about Chris Sharma first trad climb. He climbed the Rostrum which has a final pitch rated at like 12c. I remember him saying that hardest part of the climb was the 5.10 offwidth section down on the first few pitches. But as soon as the climb became steep and had more technical movements he cruised it. Because he is a sport climber and has a different set of skills that a trad climber he excelled at different parts of the climb.
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jer
Nov 8, 2001, 4:50 PM
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nice point wigglestick.
This is such a tough conversation because of one word: variables. The variables are countless in each situation.
A 5.12 sport climber would have a hard time climbing his/her latest "proj" with thirty pounds of cams and slings hanging off their harness. Hanging out in a 5.11 fingertip seam trying to decide which little micronut will go in and what length of draw should be used is MUCH more strenuos than hanging on a 5.11 crimper trying to decide which side of my harness should I grab a quickdraw from?
Routes that have felt 5.11+ for me on a FA- I have gone back and possibly retrobolted for the masses; or at least toproped and sometimes downgraded it a full grade. Why? Well- I was weighted down with gear and indecision- I was cleaning loose rock, etc. The variables defined how hard it was for me.
In Trad climbing- the best way I could possibly rate (a new) route would be to toprope or solo it- because for every person who leads it- it will be different. What stance did they place from? What holds did they cover up because they filled it with a buncha gear? There are endless amounts of variables that can and do change the rating for a particular user. One might say "man! the book said 5.10c- but I would Definitely give that a solid 5.11!!" Yeah well- did you see the massive sidepull at the roof; or were you so focused on your little fingerlock that you missed it!?
This is the main reason I see people climbing below their abilities when climbing trad- the unknown and the variables that they may face on the rock. In sport ; who cares? Slap in a leaver and lower yo chunky butt off...
Jer
[ This Message was edited by: jer on 2001-11-08 08:57 ]
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krillen
Nov 8, 2001, 5:43 PM
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Sport climbs and trad climb ratings should stay the same for all the reasons stated above.
One thing though, have you noticed how sport climbers spray a whole lot more than trad climbers? Could it be that Trad climbing requires you to use your brain? Think things through, push yourself way over your pieces while remaining calm, and knowing that at any momment in time you could blow out and fall on the gear YOU placed? Maybe sport climbers should turn off their mouths and turn on their brains while at the crag. I don't care what level you climb at, Trad is WAY harder than sport. And even though the grading remains the same, climbers take that into consideration when comparing.
Tell your sport friends to put it park until they can onsight some decent trad, then try and watch them spray when all the blood has drained from their faces after a near fall!
end rant
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froggy
Nov 8, 2001, 6:20 PM
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Awesome points Krillen!
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scrappy
Nov 8, 2001, 6:52 PM
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here's another point: sport climbs are worked alot more than trad. most trad sends are onsight or within a few gos. a 5.12 sport climber might get most 12s after a few days of working on them but a 5.12 trader will get it onsight maybee 1 or 2 tries. if the trad dude were to work the climb like a sport route (pre placing pro) he would be on stuff more like in the 13 level.
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ecchastang
Nov 8, 2001, 7:52 PM
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Who cares? Everyone should stop bragging and climb!!!
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hammockrg
Nov 9, 2001, 4:43 AM
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Froggy:Thats a good question and thats one that probably been asked for eons.I am an old trad I don't climb 5.12. But I respect people who do, sport or trad. It takes a fair amount of disipline and training to reach that grade. I say what ever you climb do it for yourself. But to get to your question. from my experiance. It can be pretty hard hanging 15ft above your last peice gear and trying to fish in a nut above your head because you cant get any higher to reach it. Then the piece might be good and it might not. But when you do climb above it and you get to some good gear and the climbing gets a little easier wow what a feeling you get. So it all really is the way you look at it. One persons 5.6 maybe anothers 5.12 You keep asking questions thats what keeps one learning. Keep it doubled back
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skupdogg
Nov 9, 2001, 6:24 AM
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yeah, keep 'em the same, i'd be bent if i could lead a 5.9 trad route, but couldn't lead a 5.9 sport climb (or vice versa) cause the ratings were different. that'd be stupid. standardization is where it's at, baby.
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