|
Barnacle
Jul 13, 2010, 1:27 PM
Post #1 of 59
(12076 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 5
|
I am fairly new to climbing and have done all of my climbing in the rock gym with my girlfriend and friends. I am in the process of finding a climbing partner for outdoor/indoor, my girlfriend who I also climb with is not as into the sport as I am but likes indoor climbing for the exercise primarily.
There is a big weight differential between us (roughly 100 lbs) and she has concerns when belaying me in case of falls. She is proficient using an ATC and knows how to belay effectively using standard tube style devices.
Is getting a Petzl Grigri this early on a bad move? I am thinking the auto camming mechanism would add a piece of mind while she belays me to abate some of her fears.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jul 13, 2010, 1:53 PM
Post #2 of 59
(12055 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Barnacle wrote: I am fairly new to climbing and have done all of my climbing in the rock gym with my girlfriend and friends. I am in the process of finding a climbing partner for outdoor/indoor, my girlfriend who I also climb with is not as into the sport as I am but likes indoor climbing for the exercise primarily. There is a big weight differential between us (roughly 100 lbs) and she has concerns when belaying me in case of falls. She is proficient using an ATC and knows how to belay effectively using standard tube style devices. Is getting a Petzl Grigri this early on a bad move? I am thinking the auto camming mechanism would add a piece of mind while she belays me to abate some of her fears. Thoughts?
If she's already proficient with the ATC, I don't see any reason not to go to a Gri-gri. It sounds like you're already aware that the Gri-gri is a somewhat complicated belay device and is best used only by experts. As long as she takes the time to really learn how to use it before you go logging a bunch of airtime, have at it. Make sure she understands its unique failure modes, how to set it up and check it, how to feed rope effectively without leaving the brake unattended and how to control the tension in the cam for lowering.
|
|
|
|
|
Barnacle
Jul 13, 2010, 2:05 PM
Post #3 of 59
(12046 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 5
|
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 13, 2010, 4:55 PM
Post #4 of 59
(11989 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: There is a big weight differential between us (roughly 100 lbs) and she has concerns when belaying me in case of falls. She is proficient using an ATC and knows how to belay effectively using standard tube style devices. Is getting a Petzl Grigri this early on a bad move? I am thinking the auto camming mechanism would add a piece of mind while she belays me to abate some of her fears.
With a 100-lb weight difference, changing the belay device isn't the solution; having her anchor in—every time, whether you're leading or just top roping—is.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
Perihelion
Jul 13, 2010, 4:59 PM
Post #5 of 59
(11986 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2010
Posts: 51
|
If the major concern is the weight difference between you, I don't think a GriGri is the answer. When you fall, the GriGri will lock up tight with no "dynamic belay" except what you get from rope stretch and friction.
If you really do outweigh her by 100 pounds and you take a hard fall, she is going to leave the ground. The advantage to a GriGri then is, if she freaks out or gets splatted on the rock, the rope won't run through the belay device. After one ride like that, you'll be looking for a new belay partner.
I think you probably already have the hardware you need, what you need now is some instruction from someone who knows how to handle the cornfed climber/pixie belayer situation. Many books discuss this; for example, "Rock Climbing: Mastering Basic Skills" by Craig Luebben. Not saying this is the best book, I just happen to have it and Craig does describe the exact situation you face and how to handle it.
The combination of a belay device that allows for dynamic belay, a good belay stance and technique, and anchoring the belay, will solve the problem more effectively and with less money than a GriGri.
(This post was edited by Perihelion on Jul 13, 2010, 5:02 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Barnacle
Jul 13, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #6 of 59
(11981 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 5
|
She always anchors, that is not the issue (she would have eaten the rock wall by now) - the force of the fall is what concerns her
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jul 13, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #7 of 59
(11979 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Perihelion wrote: If the major concern is the weight difference between you, I don't think a GriGri is the answer. When you fall, the GriGri will lock up tight with no "dynamic belay" except what you get from rope stretch and friction. If you really do outweigh her by 100 pounds and you take a hard fall, she is going to leave the ground. The advantage to a GriGri then is, if she freaks out or gets splatted on the rock, the rope won't run through the belay device. I think you probably already have the hardware you need, what you need now is some instruction from someone who knows how to handle the cornfed climber/pixie belayer situation. Many books discuss this; for example, "Rock Climbing: Mastering Basic Skills" by Craig Luebben. Not saying this is the best book, I just happen to have it and Craig does describe the exact situation you face and how to handle it. The combination of a belay device that allows for dynamic belay, a good belay stance and technique, and anchoring the belay, will solve the problem more effectively and with less money than a GriGri.
wow. A belayer is 100lbs lighter than the climber, and you're worried about a dynamic belay.
|
|
|
|
|
Perihelion
Jul 13, 2010, 5:08 PM
Post #8 of 59
(11963 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2010
Posts: 51
|
Then I don't understand the issue. If she always anchors, and follows "ABC" ie anchor, belayer, and climber are in a line, then what is the problem? The anchor takes the force, not her. Is she having a hard time holding the rope? If so, try a device with more friction, like an ATC-XP or Reverso. Or a GriGri.
|
|
|
|
|
Barnacle
Jul 13, 2010, 5:13 PM
Post #9 of 59
(11948 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 5
|
Her concern is holding the rope - shes new to the sport and maybe hits the rock gym once a week and is still developing her upper body strength.
Both of us are known to handdog and towards the end of a route her arms get tired from belaying after several climbs. This is where the concern sets in that if I take a spill off the rock she will loose the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 13, 2010, 5:20 PM
Post #10 of 59
(11934 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Barnacle wrote: She always anchors, that is not the issue (she would have eaten the rock wall by now) - the force of the fall is what concerns her
Then the answer is education. She needs to learn that she can stop your falls with an ordinary belay device. She needs to be using a high-friction device, like an ATC-XP or ATC-Guide. If she isn't willing to spend the time learning to belay you comfortably with a conventional belay device, then I wouldn't trust her with a grigri. In fact, I wouldn't trust her to belay me at all. Sorry, if that's not the answer you want to hear; but that's the answer that's going to keep you from getting injured, or worse.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
Perihelion
Jul 13, 2010, 5:21 PM
Post #11 of 59
(11933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2010
Posts: 51
|
In reply to: Her concern is holding the rope - shes new to the sport and maybe hits the rock gym once a week and is still developing her upper body strength.
Enjoy your new GriGri.
|
|
|
|
|
Barnacle
Jul 13, 2010, 5:34 PM
Post #12 of 59
(11908 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2010
Posts: 5
|
I appreciate your candor
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Jul 13, 2010, 8:18 PM
Post #13 of 59
(11826 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
Ehm. . . . A large climber weighing in here (like that pun?).
I too outweigh my female climbing partner by around 100 pounds and I agree with the advice that jt512 and J-ung have given regarding using a high friction device, better belay education, and an anchor for your belayer.
As for Perihelion’s advice about getting a Gri Gri so your belayer can hold the rope? Ignore this idiots advice.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Jul 13, 2010, 9:18 PM
Post #14 of 59
(11774 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
chadnsc wrote: Ehm. . . . A large climber weighing in here (like that pun?). I too outweigh my female climbing partner by around 100 pounds and I agree with the advice that jt512 and J-ung have given regarding using a high friction device, better belay education, and an anchor for your belayer. As for Perihelion’s advice about getting a Gri Gri so your belayer can hold the rope? Ignore this idiots advice.
While using a grigri is not THE solution, it can be A solution. If they're both hangdogging, as the OP states, then they can be nice to have. Proper education/technique is required for any belay device. While I agree that mastering a tube-style belay device is probably the wiser option here, I also don't think that people who do things differently are necessarily idiots... 
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Jul 13, 2010, 9:40 PM
Post #15 of 59
(11748 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
You missed the point.
I don't think Perihelions is an idiot because he's advising doing something differently.
I think Perihelions and idiot because of how he's advising that using a gri-gri will instantly and simply solve the OP's issues with his belayers fear of rope slippage.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Jul 13, 2010, 10:17 PM
Post #16 of 59
(11718 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
If used properly it will.
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 13, 2010, 10:18 PM
Post #17 of 59
(11712 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
chadnsc wrote: I think Perihelions and idiot because of how he's advising that using a gri-gri will instantly and simply solve the OP's issues with his belayers fear of rope slippage.
He (possibly she) made three posts in this thread. In reading them all, I don't think your characterization of Perihelion's position is either accurate or fair.
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Jul 13, 2010, 10:26 PM
Post #18 of 59
(11706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
chadnsc wrote: You missed the point. I don't think Perihelions is an idiot because he's advising doing something differently. I think Perihelions and idiot because of how he's advising that using a gri-gri will instantly and simply solve the OP's issues with his belayers fear of rope slippage.
When I read the guys posts they seem thought out and reasonable. You may disagree but calling him or her an idiot is out of line. Perhaps re-read both prior posts.
Sounds to me like you've only been the fatso in the cornfed - pixie continuum, so what do you know about it?
I've had several 200 lb + partners and I've caught big falls with everything from a figure eight, to atc, to grigri. I've been lifted easily 5 feet off the ground and hung on like a pit bull. You guys are throwing opinions around without knowing many of the details. Are the falls top-rope hangs or lead falls? Are the ropes skinny or fat? Etc.
The advice to get a high friction device like an atc-guide is good. You can also add a second identical locker alongside the belay locker to add some more friction. I don't advocate belay gloves instead of adequate friction, but they can be used in addition to adequate friction. They are probably all the more useful if you are going to bottom anchor. Getting lifted up acts as a shock absorber. If you are tied down now you really better have good braking.
If the OP chooses to get a grigri, the fact that he is even asking about whether this is a smart idea is encouraging. A grigri, like anything else, has pros and cons.
1.) It takes practice to learn how to quickly feed rope out safely. This is true even if you have vast experience belaying with an atc.
2.) Noobs drop partners lowering with grigris when they mistakenly crank the handle hard, the cam goes to wide open, and they are not holding the brake side of the rope.
3.) If you get lifted to the first draw the biner can hold the cam in the open position, dropping the leader.
4.) It should always be considered a "locking-assist" device, not a "hands free" device.
5.) It is possible to feed backwards. Knowing how to do pre-check pull and making it a habit is essential.
6.) It is worth practicing proper feeding techniques and lowering in a safe manner until the device is fully understood.
If an intelligent person is willing to go through these steps, then a gri-gri is fine, and can be a much more comfortable way to hold a sausage gut such as yourself off the deck for long periods of time.
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Jul 13, 2010, 10:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 13, 2010, 10:33 PM
Post #19 of 59
(11701 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
dugl33 wrote: 4.) It should always be considering a "locking-assist" device, not a "hands free" device.
Does this mean then that I shouldn't be using it while driving?
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Jul 13, 2010, 10:40 PM
Post #20 of 59
(11690 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
kriso9tails wrote: dugl33 wrote: 4.) It should always be considering a "locking-assist" device, not a "hands free" device. Does this mean then that I shouldn't be using it while driving?
No, not at all. Using a grigri is perhaps one of the best ways to belay while driving.
|
|
|
|
|
TarHeelEMT
Jul 16, 2010, 1:27 AM
Post #21 of 59
(11330 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 724
|
Barnacle wrote: I am fairly new to climbing and have done all of my climbing in the rock gym with my girlfriend and friends. I am in the process of finding a climbing partner for outdoor/indoor, my girlfriend who I also climb with is not as into the sport as I am but likes indoor climbing for the exercise primarily. There is a big weight differential between us (roughly 100 lbs) and she has concerns when belaying me in case of falls. She is proficient using an ATC and knows how to belay effectively using standard tube style devices. Is getting a Petzl Grigri this early on a bad move? I am thinking the auto camming mechanism would add a piece of mind while she belays me to abate some of her fears. Thoughts?
My 120 pound girlfriend can catch my 210 pound self with an ATC. She had just damn sure be anchored to something first.
|
|
|
|
|
gazoo9224
Jul 18, 2010, 6:39 AM
Post #22 of 59
(11116 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2010
Posts: 16
|
when she is that ligth and she anchors in then you'll want a dynamic belay. so i wouldnt use a grigri.
start som fall training. start below the draw (clipped in) and jump. then a the same height. increase the the fall gradually. this way she will get a feel for what is required. then if need be repeate the same process with a grigri.
you can also train this on a toprope by getting a the relais and the taking a few yards of rope and jumping.
if you are not sure if you want to buy a grigri ,then ask a friend if you can use his to do the training
|
|
|
|
|
steple
Jul 19, 2010, 6:37 AM
Post #23 of 59
(11028 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2008
Posts: 67
|
Tubers and auto locking devices both have pros and cons. It is personal preference. Have her try a Grigri, see how she likes it.
Belay gloves might also be worth trying.
|
|
|
|
|
mikec58
Jul 20, 2010, 5:20 PM
Post #24 of 59
(10884 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 30, 2009
Posts: 47
|
If you're 200 pounds or more, the weight of the anchor isn't the only issue to consider. When the load on the rope exceeds 200 pounds, the Gri-Gri may fail to operate smoothly due to the relatively low surface area over which the rope makes contact (insufficient friction). When overloaded, the Gri-Gri may seem to be locked up as the lever is pulled, but then it suddenly releases and drops the load a few feet. This can be very disconcerting when the load is you! The extra loop in the Petzl STOP provides greater friction area and smoother performance with heavier loads. I have even had problems with the STOP when carrying a loaded backpack. My preference is the six-bar rescue rack, which provides a large friction area.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Jul 20, 2010, 5:28 PM
Post #25 of 59
(10875 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
mikec58 wrote: If you're 200 pounds or more, the weight of the anchor isn't the only issue to consider. When the load on the rope exceeds 200 pounds, the Gri-Gri may fail to operate smoothly due to the relatively low surface area over which the rope makes contact (insufficient friction). When overloaded, the Gri-Gri may seem to be locked up as the lever is pulled, but then it suddenly releases and drops the load a few feet. This can be very disconcerting when the load is you! The extra loop in the Petzl STOP provides greater friction area and smoother performance with heavier loads. I have even had problems with the STOP when carrying a loaded backpack. My preference is the six-bar rescue rack, which provides a large friction area.
Can you clarify what you're saying here? Even in top-rope situations, the Gri-Gri will see more than 200 pounds of force when catching a fall. I've never felt a sudden release under tension. Or are you talking about falling suddenly once you pull the lever? With a hand on the break strand, this shouldn't be an issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
