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watersprite
Jul 31, 2003, 12:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: there's no way to learn like trial and error. Trial and error can sound like a deathwish to me...Yes, learning concepts are great from experianced climbers, but some of the experianced ones make lame judgements that just haven't had the oportunity to kill them yet, but may one day bite them in the rear, possibly resulting in death. Far too many people get the short end of the stick on the error part of the trials. Personally, I learn best from taking in from many sources (classes, demonstrations, experienced climbers, books, reports of accidents with analisys of what went wrong and how to prevent, and such) toss the bad, and keep the good, climb safe, and live long. I would rather not die climbing.
this was such a great quote I had to bring it back...
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stevematthys
Jul 31, 2003, 1:51 AM
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i learned from trial and error, and i am still alive.........knock on wood.
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tenn_dawg
Jul 31, 2003, 2:01 AM
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Yep, me too. Of course I read alot of books, and eased my way in. Oh, and I'm not a retard when it comes to saftey. I have always known what a good gear placement is, and what a bad one is. I'm amazed at how many new climbers can't tell the difference.
You'll love this. My third time ever on the rock, was on a 40' 5.7 Trad Lead. Took two falls and still lived.
Mabey I'm lucky. I don't think so though. I just always approached the technical side of climbing with a cool contemplative head, and understood how to place good pro. Reading a bunch of "How To" books helped with the techniques, and the basics, but the rest I figgered (tennessee english) out through experience.
Travis
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caughtinside
Jul 31, 2003, 2:38 AM
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Trial and error is what makes things fun! That great step into the unknown. Of course, you should be able to recognize when 'error' will mean that you will be maimed or killed.
I'm against taking formal classes. Talk about sucking the fun out of something, and money out of your wallet. Gyms prey on that too, some of 'em won't let you lead until you take their little $50 class. Gotta make a living I guess, but it ain't that hard to clip into a draw.
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alpinerockfiend
Jul 31, 2003, 2:45 AM
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Indeed, it is the fastest way to learn.
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micahmcguire
Jul 31, 2003, 3:21 AM
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aww thats great. what i meant was, the classes I have had have been rather juvenile since SAFETY FIRST practically stood in the way of realism, plus the concepts they taught were already very familiar to me (personally). I find it best to be instructed by folks who are not swayed by things like liability, a paycheck, and so on. Friends seem to teach friends the best, and past that I rely on trial and error. Now this doesn't bar idiocy. Certainly a dumbass can still get themselves killed, but if one has a head on their shoulders, trial and error seem to work. Its not hard to tell what will get you killed and what wont. I think all the people who say things like "trial and error-good way to get killed" are just trying to sound dramatic. I've known far many more climbers who've died due to natural occurances such as avalanches and rockfall than I've known new climbers who've killed themselves doing something stupid (in fact, I've known none of the latter).
my point is that sometimes, classes are a waste of time. that is all.
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traddad
Jul 31, 2003, 1:26 PM
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I took the mentor route. I was living in Ft. Collins at the time (why I EVER left...) and a great, mature trad climber moved in from Wyoming. I volunteered to basically be his belay slave and he dragged my ass up a bunch of classics in Eldo and up on Lumpy Ridge. He was climbing in the 10s at the time (late '70s) but saw fit to break me in on the Bastille Crack, Touch and Go, Osirus etc. rather than push me in the deep end of the pool. I learned a lot fast. Most of all, I learned to be safe, from his example, and his admonishments when I screwed up. I can still remember a reaming I got for a bad anchor on my first lead (Twin Owls).
For the life of me I can't remember his name. I'd like to thank him.
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rrrADAM
Jul 31, 2003, 1:29 PM
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In most endevers we can learn from our mistakes, but in climbing our mistakes can kill us.
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jookyhead
Jul 31, 2003, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: rrradam Posted: In most endevers we can learn from our mistakes, but in climbing our mistakes can kill us.
Word.
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timstich
Jul 31, 2003, 2:48 PM
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In reply to: In most endevers we can learn from our mistakes, but in climbing our mistakes can kill us.
Our automotive driving mistakes are more likely to kill us than any other. Got a lesson in that recently that drives the point home. The exposure to the risk is for much longer periods than hours spent climbing. It's common to spend ten and twelve solid hours driving at 75+ mph speeds on trips.
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tenn_dawg
Jul 31, 2003, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In most endevers we can learn from our mistakes, but in climbing our mistakes can kill us. Our automotive driving mistakes are more likely to kill us than any other. Got a lesson in that recently that drives the point home. The exposure to the risk is for much longer periods than hours spent climbing. It's common to spend ten and twelve solid hours driving at 75+ mph speeds on trips.
Ahhh, I think I disagree. I think that climbing is more dangerous than driving. The difference is, when we are climbing we have to make objective decisions about how much danger to expose ourselves too. Hopefully it is an educated and well calculated assessment of risk. The actual presence of danger of injury or death is significant.
I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles over tens of thousands of hours. Never been injured once. I have twisted an ankle bouldering, hurt my elbows by training too hard, and knocked a big gash in my leg falling on a low angle climb.
I think it's kind of silly to assume that driving is more dangerous than climbing. Weigh the man hours per year the population of the US spends doing both, and compare the injury rates.
This comparison may also lead to complacency among new climbers. Climbing is dangerous, and if you screw up a minute detail, you may die.
This being said, I still stress that teaching yourself is not necessarily a bad way to learn. Just a slower, more controlled, and hopefully well thought out emersion to the techniques inherent to our sport.
Travis
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micahmcguire
Jul 31, 2003, 6:24 PM
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i think what rrradam was trying to say, and I agree, is that more driver's die driving than climbers die climbing. per capita, climbing is not quite as dangerous as driving (or so the numbers would seem to indicate). however, it is a good point to make that more drivers tend to spend more time driving than climbers spend time climbing, but the number of driver-mortalities per driver so far outweighs the number of climbing-fatalities per climber.
you mentioned that you had been injured-ie "gash on the leg, bumped elbow, etc." climbing. I don't think its a fair comparison, since any injuries sustained in a car are likely to be so much more severe than injuries due to climbing. In both, there's that potentialially lethal element of speed and a sudden stop, but driver's really can't "bump their elbows" (they should be so lucky!). Injuries sustained from a collision are almost certainly going to be worse than injuries at the crags.
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scuclimber
Aug 1, 2003, 9:38 AM
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What was the Hemmingway quote? Something like: "There are only three real sports: mountain climbing, motor racing, and bullfighting. All the rest being games." :wink: I always use that driving analogy on my mom whenever her nervous/worrisome/nurse tendencies come out. Next time you're driving on a two-lane highway at high speed think about this: If you or the person across that thin yellow line accidentally nudges the wheel to the left... you're dead. It's pretty ludicris when you think about it. :shock:
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tenn_dawg
Aug 1, 2003, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: i think what rrradam was trying to say, and I agree, is that more driver's die driving than climbers die climbing. per capita, climbing is not quite as dangerous as driving (or so the numbers would seem to indicate). however, it is a good point to make that more drivers tend to spend more time driving than climbers spend time climbing, but the number of driver-mortalities per driver so far outweighs the number of climbing-fatalities per climber.
Alright, I still disagree, but before I even start into a possibly boundless argument, I'd like to see the numbers.
Lets compare statistically, Number of Driven Hours by Americans per year, compared to number of injuries that result in medical attention.
Then the Number of hours spend Climbing By americans, compared to number of injuries needing medical attention.
Just cause Wolfgang died as a result of a car, that dosen't make it more dangerious. I think that per capita per year climbers are injured as a result of climbing MUCH more often than drivers per capita per year.
I'll look up some of the numbers this afternoon, if you've got the time to do the same, then we'll compare. I have a feeling that we're not going to find a study on the climbers end that will compare well to a study on the drivers end. If that's the case, then neither one of us really has anything to say, cause we don't really have any proof either way.
Anyway, I gotta go to class, I'll get back to this this afternoon.
Travis
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redpoint73
Aug 1, 2003, 1:34 PM
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In reply to: I'm against taking formal classes. Gotta make a living I guess, but it ain't that hard to clip into a draw.
Thats funny, considering the number of times I have witnessed people back clipping, obviously not paying attention to which way the gates are facing, and having no idea what to do at the anchors when they get there (!). These people seem to be utilizing this "trial and error" method, without doing any reading or getting any form of instruction.
I'll be the first to agree that formal classes are not neccessary. You can learn safety just as well from an unpaid friend. In fact, some guides I have seen are sketchier than some of my more experienced partners. But if a beginner tries to teach themselves how to lead without any idea of what is right or wrong, they are in deep trouble.
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bandycoot
Aug 1, 2003, 4:23 PM
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Methinks that the only people you're going to hear here are going to say "trial and error" is good. This is because you're not going to hear from those who didn't successfully escape this stage. :shock: I taught myself aid climbing trial and error style. It was pretty cool learning all of that stuff with a friend. Now that I've done some research, I would LOVE to get more of the fast efficient gear and try it that way! We learned using one daisy, 2 fifi hooks, and 2 aiders. It works, but there are better systems out there.
Josh
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watersprite
Aug 1, 2003, 4:57 PM
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I was agreeing with Sixter, not Micah, in reposting the quote. I think trial and error is a bad idea, unless I can learn from someone else's error. then yeah, it's good to use...
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maddog
Aug 1, 2003, 5:14 PM
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Trial and error is what makes our hobby NOT a sport. Sure without proper training we risk our lives by not tying a knot right, backclipping, and all the other little things. If trial and error wasent a part of my hobby, i may as well be playing basketball, or football. Dont get me wrong, i dont think anyone should just go climb a rock, not knowing what they are doing, there is a HUGE responsibility that come with climbing that everyone should be very familiar with. The way i see it, no matter how talented/orgainized/safe the climber is, there is allways room for error. The more you know, the better/safer off you will be. Wheather you have been climbing for 2 months, or 10 years. The best way to go about doing it is to stay one step ahead of your mistakes.
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watersprite
Aug 1, 2003, 5:15 PM
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can we hear from "onemistakebigpancake?"
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sharpender
Aug 1, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Driving or climbing, driving or climbing. An erstwhile partner always said the most dangerous thing we'll do today is drive to the rock... I always understood that this doctor (dealt with ER cases from accidents) was referring to the statistics of deaths from auto accidents versus the risk of dieing we faced on the rock. I still believe it today.
Ironically, we all accept formal instruction for driving as normal, perhaps essential, yet climbing is much more technically involved. Trial and error has it's place, but certainly not in placing lead pro, knots, rappel setups, etc...
I have intervened more than once when some "leader" was telling a noobie how to set up a rappel, while the noobie was 80' feet off the deck alone and the leader was belaying from the ground. Wether it's the profit model or the mentor model such learning demands competent teaching and not trial and error. 8)
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tenn_dawg
Aug 1, 2003, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: I have intervened more than once when some "leader" was telling a noobie how to set up a rappel, while the noobie was 80' feet off the deck alone and the leader was belaying from the ground.
THIS pisses me off.
It is the responsibility of the more experienced climber to explain and teach these things before the new climber is ever off the ground. One day I told some guy to F off while he was trying to explain the Texas Rope trick to a new leader on a sport climb.
I said "NO, you lower him to the ground, then go up there and do it yourself. This is NOT the place to learn a risky procedure, and this guy dosen't even know the risks involved."
I have introduced many MANY people to climbing in my few years in the game. There is an art to making a good clmber out of a new one. There is alot to learn. As I was teaching myself to climb, I never tried a technique without knowing exactly what was expected, and what would happen. If I got stumped on a sport route, I bailed off a bail biner. Eventually I learned the texas rope trick from the comfort of a book at home, and tried it out under controlled circumstances.
There is more to trial and error than saying "F - it, let's see what happens when I do this." It can be safe, but you've got to THINK. I feel that a ignorant "experienced partner" can be a bigger risk to the beginner than the nOOb simply figuring it out on their own, and pushing what limits they have when they are comfortable with that.
OH, and to any "experienced" climber that has ever sent a nOOB out on lead because you didin't want to lead the pitch, or were skeched. F you. Don't get your nOOb to bail you out.
...
I'm sorry, I think I just rubbed an exposed nerve. I feel better now.
Travis
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watersprite
Aug 1, 2003, 5:41 PM
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Hi, Trav ~
when are we going climbing? come to Vancouver Sept. 1-5....
will you teach me the Texas rope trick?
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caughtinside
Aug 1, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Wow Travis!
You've really seen someone send up a n00b because they were too sketched? That is pretty cowardly!
As for formal driving lessons, I only did that because it's the law! My dad showed me everything I needed to know before I ever got to that totally unhelpful class. Climbing for me was the same way, except a friend showed me the ropes. heh heh, sorry. Last thing I want to see is mandatory climbing classes!
I've yelled at n00bs at the top of sport climbs how to clean anchors and lower, but I've always given them a run through on the ground. The yelling part is just because they're 80 feet up, and I don't want them to forget anything!
Be kind to your n00b. 8)
Dave
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tenn_dawg
Aug 1, 2003, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: Hi, Trav ~ when are we going climbing? come to Vancouver Sept. 1-5.... will you teach me the Texas rope trick?
That is SSSSSOoooooooo far away!!
You said you've got money, and can fly places, why don't you come this way? Even half way? Vancouver....sheesh, gotta drive by some major destinations to get there...
The south's really a nice place, I promise! Well once you get used to the banjo's and cows and whatnot. Oh, and the gravel interstate's and highways. Did I mention the inbreds? Well that's Kentucky and North Carolina, and even the South dosen't claim them!
Travis
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watersprite
Aug 1, 2003, 5:48 PM
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but your lease is up! waaaa!!! RIcky, take me dancing, I can do it! I can sing too!
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