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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 5:27 PM
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I've got my TR gear collected and haven't chosen a belay device to buy yet; in the meantime I thought I'd familiarize meself with the Munter hitch & the three-'biner setup described in Freedom of the Hills.
Two questions:
does the Munter work well for a top-rope belay (problems paying out rope?),
&:
has anybody actually used the three-biner braking system (two ovals around a third that's clipped to harness or anchor point - rope threaded through central one around spines of other two), and if so what were your impressions? I've got some brand-new ovals lookin' like they'd love to brake (but not break) the rope . . .
tnx :roll:
leinosaur
p.s. yes I'm new enough to get psyched up about buying 'biners
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mmindtrap
Feb 20, 2004, 5:33 PM
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The munter hitch is ok as a last resort, The problem with it, it twists the rope terribly. However the 3 biner method you speak of will work and is better on the rope. But the best idea would be just to buy a figure 8 or ATC, it won't break the bank.
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shakylegs
Feb 20, 2004, 5:34 PM
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Um, you'll need six biners, not 3, for the braking system. Ovals. They'll kink your rope. The biners will cost you about $30, instead of $15 for a belay device.
The munter will kink your rope like nobody's business, but it's still a good knot to know.
Buy a belay device; you'll ending up saving money for gear, since you won't be constantly replacing your kinked ropes.
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robmcc
Feb 20, 2004, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: has anybody actually used the three-biner braking system (two ovals around a third that's clipped to harness or anchor point - rope threaded through central one around spines of other two), and if so what were your impressions? I've got some brand-new ovals lookin' like they'd love to brake (but not break) the rope . . .
I've rappelled with a carabiner brake, but never belayed like that, nor do I think I'd get on a rope with anyone who wanted to belay with one. Good technique to know in a pinch for rappelling, but buy a belay device.
Rob
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dirtineye
Feb 20, 2004, 5:49 PM
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I've used the munter for a top belay off anchors when I was below the anchors and it works great. I've rappeled on a munter and it works great there too.
I have played with the idea of using it for a TR belay, I may even have done it once, (can't remember) but here is one small problem you might want to consider:
When you reverse directions on the munter, the knot slides around the biner, with the characteristic munter loop swapping sides so to speak. This means that when you change from giving slack or taking to the opposite, a little more slack when changing to giving and a little awkward tug when changing to taking will occur. It's no big deal, but it is not as smooth as a belay device such as the ATC.
Just one other point, when you are using the munter for a top belay with the munter above you, your break hand is down of course. When you rappel or belay with the munter at your waist, you keep your brake hand down as well, not up like some people do with an ATC or a figure 8. There are pictures that show this method somewhere , I think the petzl site used to have em.
The brake line can be put around the biner one more time for extra friction if you need it. You must have the brake line on the spine side of the biner for rappel or waist belay.
Be sure you use an HMS style biner. You won't have a lot of fun trying to work a munter off an oval or D or offset D. I love my Petzl William lockers.
Petzl also had a nice animation of how to tie a munter with one hand on an overhead biner on their site.
Now after all that, you should probably go get yourself an ATC and belay off HMS style biners with it, and keep your munter handy as a back up.
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jt512
Feb 20, 2004, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: Um, you'll need six biners, not 3, for the braking system. Ovals. They'll kink your rope.
The setup is called a carabiner brake, and it won't kink your rope. The basic setup is 6 non-locking biners. Ovals work best, and asymmetrical sport biners, worst, but, other than wiregates, most any biners will do in a pinch. You can replace the two biners that clip into your harness with one locking biner, reducing the number of biners to 5. You can supposedly also use one biner for the brake bar, instead of 2, but I have never been able to trust a single biner for this purpose. The biner is subjected to a high force across its spine, so I want redundancy.
Every climber should be proficient in setting up a carabiner brake rappel. It is the best alternative when you forget or drop your rappel device.
-Jay
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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 6:14 PM
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jt - I'm sorry I don't have F.O.T.H. with me to see the diagram again, but the max oval count I can make out of your description is four; two clipped to the harness and two as a brake bar.
as for rope twist on the Munter, other threads (yes I researched the question before I asked it like a good dotcommer) say that the Munter merely reveals how twisted your rope was in the first place, doesn't necessarily twist it itself - worth a look anyway.
So, yeah, I'll buy a device but I've already got 'biners enough to do that brake.
For the Munter I've got a pear-shaped (HMS) Petzl locker, though I opted for one that's smaller than the William. Nice & fat though, & gold in color!
tnx for the replies y'all
leinosaur
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lstockett
Feb 20, 2004, 6:36 PM
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I can only think of four reasons to use a Munter for belaying.
1) You're belaying from above (e. g. bringing up a second).
2) You dropped your belay device (an emergency)
3) You're practicing emergency techniques so you'll be ready if something goes wrong.
4) You hate the owner of the rope and want to give him/her a tangled, twisted, mess.
Buy a belay device.
Practice belaying and rappelling with a munter though. Do it close to the ground for safety. The first time I rappeled with a Munter it was after dark, and a 200 ft rappel. Not fun. Practice the emergency techniques BEFORE an emergency.
Basically the same goes for the carabiner brake. It's a backup technique that you should know and practice, but you probably won't use it much under normal circumstances. It's preferable to the Munter for rappeling in my opinion because it doesn't twist the rope.
These were good questions. Be safe and have fun.
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jt512
Feb 20, 2004, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: jt - I'm sorry I don't have F.O.T.H. with me to see the diagram again, but the max oval count I can make out of your description is four; two clipped to the harness and two as a brake bar.
I wasn't attempting to fully describe the setup. The basic setup is 6 biners. Get the book.
-Jay
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sticky_fingers
Feb 20, 2004, 6:50 PM
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I'll try to help. Since I don't know how to include a picture w/o linking it, here's a link to a pic of the carabiner break system comprised of 4 biners. **What is omitted are the two carabiners used to connect this system to your belay loop.** If you're having difficulty thinking how this system works, look at the picture and compare how the rope is running vs. how the rope runs through something like an ATC.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...ages/Carabiner5.html
Like everybody said, and since you said you're trying to get TR gear, I don't know why you'd want to get anything other than something cheap and simple like an ATC or an 8. I question why/how you've collected all this TR gear but have overlooked something as basic as a belay device... Are you sure you've collected all the right TR gear? Do have a harness or are you just gonna swammi it? :P
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jt512
Feb 20, 2004, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: I'll try to help. Since I don't know how to include a picture w/o linking it, here's a link to a pic of the carabiner break system comprised of 4 biners. **What is omitted are the two carabiners used to connect this system to your belay loop.** If you're having difficulty thinking how this system works, look at the picture and compare how the rope is running vs. how the rope runs through something like an ATC. http://storrick.cnchost.com/...ages/Carabiner5.html Like everybody said, and since you said you're trying to get TR gear, I don't know why you'd want to get anything other than something cheap and simple like an ATC or an 8. I question why/how you've collected all this TR gear but have overlooked something as basic as a belay device... Are you sure you've collected all the right TR gear? Do have a harness or are you just gonna swammi it? :P
I missed the fact that he's buying TR gear. Carabiner brakes are for rappelling only, not for belaying. They do not provide enough friction.
-Jay
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jv
Feb 20, 2004, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: I've got my TR gear collected and haven't chosen a belay device to buy yet; in the meantime I thought I'd familiarize meself with the Munter hitch & the three-'biner setup described in Freedom of the Hills. . . . . has anybody actually used the three-biner braking system (two ovals around a third that's clipped to harness or anchor point - rope threaded through central one around spines of other two), and if so what were your impressions? I've got some brand-new ovals lookin' like they'd love to brake (but not break) the rope . . .
Now wait just a dad burn minute. Are you saying that FOTH is advocating use of a carabiner brake for belaying?? Is this true?
JV
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mrme
Feb 20, 2004, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Um, you'll need six biners, not 3, for the braking system. Ovals. They'll kink your rope. The setup is called a carabiner brake, and it won't kink your rope. The basic setup is 6 non-locking biners. Ovals work best, and asymmetrical sport biners, worst, but, other than wiregates, most any biners will do in a pinch. You can replace the two biners that clip into your harness with one locking biner, reducing the number of biners to 5. You can supposedly also use one biner for the brake bar, instead of 2, but I have never been able to trust a single biner for this purpose. The biner is subjected to a high force across its spine, so I want redundancy. Every climber should be proficient in setting up a carabiner brake rappel. It is the best alternative when you forget or drop your rappel device. -Jay
why not use wire gates?
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mrme
Feb 20, 2004, 7:30 PM
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and i also thought a carabiner brake was just that a brake to be used only in rapeling
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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 7:42 PM
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OK hell I just typed a long reply/defense and then it was erased as I wasn't logged in . . .
NO I'm not saying FOTH advocates the biner brake for belay - sorry I had just seen the setup and was curious as to your experiences with it
jt - i get it now, the setup that is, and won't try to belay with it don't worry - thanks for the specifics though
as for TR gear (& gear in general besides shoes & harness which go withouth saying smartypants) I've got a rope, 7 ovals, one d-locker, one HMS locker & some webbing. Today I'll get more webbing for webolettes and a belay device, & some cord just to play with for prussiks & that; anything major missing?
and I'll probably wait 'til somebody more experienced can double-check my setup before trusting it, though I've read up on anchors & observed closely the building of all the ones I've relied upon in the past. Redundancy, direction, etc. Build 'em bomber.
So, thanks for the benefit of all the experience & the warnings; especially to those who managed to keep disgust out of their tone but hey . . . some day I won't be such a noob & then I can enjoy belittling others as well! Sounds like fun.
tnx
leinosaur
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vegastradguy
Feb 20, 2004, 7:56 PM
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webbing for webolettes? i would recommend either getting 7mm perlon for a cordlette or buying a manufactured webolette. tying your own webolette is, at best, unsafe. (a webolette, as mentioned here, is a runner with a loop on each end). If you tie the webbing into a large loop and use it as a cordlette, that's safe.
anyway, any questions, you know where to post 'em.
edited because i couldnt resist adding: how come no one uses the good ol' hip belay anymore??? :lol:
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shakylegs
Feb 20, 2004, 8:18 PM
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I've tried to use the hip belay before, but you get shouted down real quick. No one wants to lead. Wonder why...
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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 8:23 PM
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ok dang I thought a webolette was a long loop of webbing used like a cordolette - I may never post again without my reference books at my side (as even the more experienced seem to screw up the terminology now & again)
also FOTH says check your water knots & then no worries on making your own loops - sewn ones seem to cost a lot more & I like knots anyway -
though FOTH says to check 'em cause they can slip over time
seems like a big loop reaching three anchor points & tied (double overhand or figger 8) before the central clip would only have the weakness of the knot (which shouldn't actually be weak anyway)
on one anchor point, which would only take a bit more than a third
of the KN's with proper direction & would be doubly backed up . . .
but that's off-topic I guess & recently covered (again) in a thread on two-pointed anchors
thanks again for all the beta & your patience
leinosaur :?
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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 8:28 PM
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I was trying to type figger "eight" above & it made that sunglasses guy - I use 'em too much already but that was unintentional . . .
barely relevantly,
leinosaur
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mrme
Feb 20, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: I've tried to use the hip belay before, but you get shouted down real quick. No one wants to lead. Wonder why...
you just need the right partners. mainly someone you trust alot. :D
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leinosaur
Feb 20, 2004, 9:02 PM
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I went top-roping with an oldster last fall and he actually busted out the hip-belay; he was just showin' off all the alternatives. Over the course of the day (he did all the belaying) he started with the hip belay, went to a figure eight, then on to an ATC, I think; why, I'm not sure but I was dead impressed.
He's an old salt retired navy ex-outward bound instructor history teacher sailor trying to introduce entitled prep-school kids to the great outdoors, and I must say I was impressed that day.
Any wonder I'm asking about these other braking devices?
leinosaur
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slcliffdiver
Feb 20, 2004, 9:05 PM
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Glad you aren't going to use the crab brake to belay. One problem with the munter which hasn't been brought up is if you use it incorrectly it can potentially unscrew your locking biner. Otherwise it's ok for top-roping but that is a big "OTHERWISE".
For top roping the sweetest feeding belay device over a vast array of non skinny ropes is a stitch plate (with keeper cord not the stupid spring) with 2 matching locking D biners with the spines both on the side of your belay hand but gates opening opposit directions. Nothing I've ever used feeds as sweet over a vast array off non skinny ropes as this setup.
Before people jump all over me about how the stitch plate jams and is a royal pain have you ever set it up like above? It goes from being a pain in the a-- to a sweet heart if you set it up "exactly" like above. I'm not going to recommend it for lead belays like this however.
Nothing wrong with being a noob. Just realize that being a "creative" noob can bring about very unpleasant consiquences in climbing.
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jt512
Feb 20, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Um, you'll need six biners, not 3, for the braking system. Ovals. They'll kink your rope. The setup is called a carabiner brake, and it won't kink your rope. The basic setup is 6 non-locking biners. Ovals work best, and asymmetrical sport biners, worst, but, other than wiregates, most any biners will do in a pinch. You can replace the two biners that clip into your harness with one locking biner, reducing the number of biners to 5. You can supposedly also use one biner for the brake bar, instead of 2, but I have never been able to trust a single biner for this purpose. The biner is subjected to a high force across its spine, so I want redundancy. Every climber should be proficient in setting up a carabiner brake rappel. It is the best alternative when you forget or drop your rappel device. -Jay why not use wire gates?
Click here and look at the lateral force that gets applied to the gate on the right. Would you trust a wire gate in that position?
-Jay
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robmcc
Feb 20, 2004, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: So, thanks for the benefit of all the experience & the warnings; especially to those who managed to keep disgust out of their tone but hey . . . some day I won't be such a noob & then I can enjoy belittling others as well! Sounds like fun.
One of the dirty little secrets of climbing is that the key to breaking in to the higher grades has nothing to do with talent, strength, or technique. It's all about bashing the n00bs. Nobody _ever_ breaks 5.12 without spilling a little noob blood. Call 'em a bunch of elitist bastards now, but if you want to climb hard, that's the price of admission. 8)
That, or eating nothing but bugs 'til you're sub 5% body fat. Take your pick.
Rob
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brutusofwyde
Feb 21, 2004, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: Click here and look at the lateral force that gets applied to the gate on the right. Would you trust a wire gate in that position? -Jay
I would and I have. Although I neither use nor endorse this as a primary method of descent, I have used it. With oval wire gates. Encountered no problems whatsoever.
Not yet mentioned in this thread are the carabiner wrap, which twists the rope almost as much as the Munter; the floating carabiner rappel; and of course with nothing whatsoever at hand except a rope, the Dulfersitz aka "Deathseat" aka "Hotseat" rappel, developed by the same man who invented the lieback as a means of ascending offset cracks.
I've also climbed many pitches belayed by, and belaying with, the hip belay.
Brutus "scarpalm" of Wyde
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