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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: I don't care much one way or the other whether someone stick clips the first bolt, the second bolt, or every bolt on a route--so long as they are honest in their description of how they climbed a route. It can even be a useful way to work a project. At Smith Rocks, people are all the time stickclipping an entire route to put the draws on the bolts of their project, and then once they have it dialed in, removing the draws for the redpoint. Now, I feel it is open to argument whether a person can claim that they redpointed a climb that had ANYTHING pre-clipped. So, in my estimation, stickclipping that first bolt denies you the ability to claim anything beyond a pinkpoint. I don't ever go with claiming a redpoint with any draws preplaced. I admit maybe you might consider me a stickler, an ethical dinosaur, or whatever. This is just my own personal code of behavior for any climb I do. So, stick clip all you want, just be honest with yourself and others about your accomplishments. Heck, I still respect someone for climbing harder than me (not hard to do), but I don't respect them for spraying BS about their abiliities, and then to find out that they failed to mention any cheats, (YES, CHEATS) such as stickclipping and then claiming a full redpoint. Maybe we could come up with a term--like their isn't enough already--for redpointing a route when the first bolt is stickclipped. But, then again, I guess we do--PINKPOINT.
Caughtinside, with due respect (which you seem to lack) the question was, what do you think of stick clipping. I gave my opinion. End of Sentence. If you don't like my opinion, that is all well and good. I admited in my post that it is my own personal feelings on the matter. I did not say a person should not stick clip. Without saying these exact words, I was trying to say what I thought of the "purity" of climbing a sport climb without a stick clip and with. I will admit, I have used similar techniques in my past. I have asked people if they wouldn't mind trailing a rope up to set a top rope for me. I have stood on someone's back or shoulders to place that first draw. I have aid climbed a crack (with clean technique) so as to be able to place a toprope on a route that was about my comfort to climb purely on lead, and purely in a lead trad manner. Never, on any of those occassions did I try to claim that any of those techniques were more than the personal choice I made for that climb, that day, my comfort level. I NEVER claimed that I redpointed any climb if I did not clip every draw onto a bolt myself, while on the sharp end of the rope, in the process of climbing. My personal ethics of climbing do not require me to be able to climb a sport climb by moving toprope(ie stick clipping every bolt). I never claimed to be the end all and be all of climbing experience. This is, I thought a forum for people to discuss their opinions on whether they believe stick clipping is acceptable. If you respond this poorly to anyone that disaggrees with you, and start personally attacking their climbing ability, which I am the first to admit is low, I may even claim it to be lower than it truly is, because I don't want anyone to be mislead into believing me to be some uberpowerful climber, and then be disappointed when I can't get up their 8 pitch project that they think might go at 5.19!
I try to not let my personal climbing ethics make me denigrate others for their personal climbing ethics. Much of my original post on this whole stick clipping matter was to do with general ethics of correctly describing what you have done. If you are happy to stick clip, stick clip. I do feel that stick clipping lowers the commitment of those moves, because everyone I think aggrees, it is much safer, and therefore less nervewracking to climb 15 feet on top rope than to boulder up, particularly if the landing is piss poor.
I have already admitted that I do on occasion do similar things to stick clipping. I also already fully admitted that not liking to stick clip may hold me back in those big numbers. What more would you like me to admit? That I enjoy climbing for what it is, getting out, experiencing nature, not chasing numbers just to chase numbers. I will argue that your responses to my post, putting down my climbing ability and therefore my experience makes you sound more elitist than it makes me sound.
Edited to insert a quote of my original post on the subject, highlighted to make the point of it being my opinion, and me admit in a few short words that I SUCK, and admit it. We all sucked at one point, right? How do we get better, but to practice. I just don't usually feel like stickclipping, and if I do something like that, I feel that it is lying to not admit it when I speak of my climbs.
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sekcot
Feb 25, 2005, 7:39 PM
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sorry caughtinside: left you out .... Thanks for the laughs and owns.
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longroper
Feb 25, 2005, 7:46 PM
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I don't know who you "purists" that have a problem with stick clipping think you are. What gives you the right to decide how a person should get their quickdraws on a route? I know people who have established many routes, even up to 14a. When they have a project they sometimes leave their draws on a climb for 6 months or more. When they redpoint 13d are you going to tell them they can't really climb 13d because they didn't hang the draws on that burn? Or that they can't climb 13d because they put one draw up with a stick clip? Should they remove their draws each time they take a burn on the climb?
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caughtinside
Feb 25, 2005, 7:57 PM
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Ok, ok. It's clear my little attempt at humor has compeletly passed over the heads of some of you. And, by explaining myself and my views more explicitly, I will risk the mockery of hugepedro! :lol:
I don't stick clip 5.8s. I don't stick clip most 5.10s. I don't stick clip most 11s and 12s.
Where I do stick clip, is where the first bolt is high, the low climbing is difficult, or the base of the route is littered with sharp/uneven rocks, or has a severe slope.
I'm not making fun of you guys who don't climb that hard because you don't climb that hard, I'm teasing you because you are ignorant of the reality of the situation. You simply don't understand the situation, and what makes it more humorous, is that you don't know enough to understand that you don't know what is happening, and make uninformed comments anyway.
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but if that opinion is based on nothing, I'm not terribly inclined to respect it. I may even poke fun at you. :P
If the only sport routes you are going to climb are 5.8 sport routes, you likely will never need/use a stick clip.
But, some of the places I climb, the rock is total choss for the first 12-15 feet. So bad, in fact, that the first bolt is up higher, because the rock isn't good enough for a solid bolt! Do you see where I'm going with this? Say its 5.11 to the first bolt. Are you going to 'solo' that 5.11 to the first bolt, ON LOOSE CRAPPY ROCK? You can, but if a hold blows you're on your ass. I've done this, and I prefer not to.
Rather, I would argue that it takes less ego to stick the bolt, because I'm not so hung up on a silly style point of one bolt clipped. You know what's WAY more important to me? Not breaking my ankle and not climbing for 4 months. Sure, sure, climbing is risky blah blah blah. I accept that. But I'm not going to take silly and COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY risks close to the ground. Because I WANT TO CLIMB MORE.
So who's the real elitist? They guy like me, attempting hard routes and falling safely, or the guy like pedro, climbing easier stuff but looking down at me because I'm taking an extra safety measure? Not that I give a hoot what he thinks, I'm trying to illustrate this for you.
Plus, if you are climbing 5.8s, they are likely bolted well, with low first bolts. You have no need for a stick clip, it's terribly easy climbing on big jugs to that first bolt, and therefore you don't understand the issues involved in stick clipping.
That's what's funny. You don't even understand why I was poking fun at you.
BTW, as a side note, where do beginning climbers get such a strong sense of style and ethics? Where does it come from!?!? They should be concerned with actually learning to climb without flailing. Perhaps a justification for not climbing well/hard? "Well, at least my style is purer than his, even if he's cranking harder stuff!"
Sheesh.
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: I don't know who you "purists" that have a problem with stick clipping think you are. What gives you the right to decide how a person should get their quickdraws on a route? I know people who have established many routes, even up to 14a. When they have a project they sometimes leave their draws on a climb for 6 months or more. When they redpoint 13d are you going to tell them they can't really climb 13d because they didn't hang the draws on that burn? Or that they can't climb 13d because they put one draw up with a stick clip? Should they remove their draws each time they take a burn on the climb?
If they want the GREATEST braggin rights, then yes, they should remove the draws. If they want to admit that they did what they consider a redpoint, because they consider a redpoint to allow preplaced draws, then let them claim that. Let them do whatever they want, so long as they aren't chipping, or doing some other grossly offensive act to the rock, but if they do something, let them admit it.
See above about me fully admitting that I don't climb as well as you do, I strive to improve, but I feel that honesty in spray (is that an oxymoron?) and honesty to yourself is better than trying to put down anyone that wants to have a more rigid quideline for how they climb. If anyone felt I was personally attacking them, they did not read my original post well enough, or read it with eyes closed to any ideas but their own.
As have been said by many on this website, if you want pure, don't use protection. Everything beside climbing in the nude, without rope or protection is impure rock climbing. We all accept certain impurities in the ways we like to climb, but my opinion on how I rock climb is at least as valid as your opinion on how you rock climb. Maybe I will never reach the climbing pinnacles that some of you spray about so constantly on this site, but at least I will have fun, and at the end of the day, I will feel that I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish, and did so in a manner that aggrees with my own personal climbing ethic. I don't think anyone here was trying to force stick clippers to throw away their stick clips--would you force a non stick clipper to climb a route by stickclipping if they did not want to? Or could you maybe respect each person's climbing abilities for what they are for that person?
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hugepedro
Feb 25, 2005, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Rrrrriiiiight. So I'm the one who said, "I climb harder than you", to 2 different people? :lol: Good times, Pedro! I haven't mentioned how hard I climb in this thread. have you? :P I make a silly little crack about a 5.8, and we get to hear your little insecure rant. Maybe you didn't catch my Elitism Alert. :P Hey, tell you what-- you allow me my 'training wheels' and I'll do my best not to yawn while you embellish your stories of 5.8 death defiance. :lol: Its all good bro. 8^)
I believe I mentioned how poorly I climb. :wink:
I make a silly little crack about training wheels, and we get to hear how weak we are.
Once again, you gotta get your line in water first, otherwise you're just trying to save face, and it's soooooo transparent.
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olderic
Feb 25, 2005, 8:13 PM
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It is frustrating that these sentiments keep coming up like...well like clockwork. It seems silly to get all worked up about something as artificial as sport climbing, but since it is Friday afternoon I will rant a little. "The Games Climbers Play" said it all almost 40 years ago. There is a pretty obvious hiearchy of styles that can be used in climbing and the simpler the style used the more "worthy" the climb is. It doesn't matter if the (vast) majority of the participants does it one way - someone can come along and up the ante by doing it in a purer style. I think Shama would be the first to admit that his almost flash of the Fly at Rumney even if he had succeeded was not as worthy as Kehl's solo. Sharma had 2 out of the 2 bolts clipped and undoubtably a draw in the 3rd. Kehl had a pile of pads.
You don't have to be the ultimate hardcore climber or constantly stating how in you are with the in crowd and claiming that if you don't climb hard you can't possibly understand - to comprehend the basics of style.
To asnser the original question - it's better if you don't.
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 8:28 PM
Post #83 of 134
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In reply to: ...BTW, as a side note, where do beginning climbers get such a strong sense of style and ethics? Where does it come from!?!? They should be concerned with actually learning to climb without flailing. Perhaps a justification for not climbing well/hard? "Well, at least my style is purer than his, even if he's cranking harder stuff!" Sheesh.
I think that some of us "newer" climber get our ethics the same place many people do, from whomever taught them and brought them into the world of rock climbing, and ultimately probably a great deal from the way they were raised. As I tried to point out in my original post, my ethical consideration wasn't about stick clipping. Stick clip all you want, and I already in my second post admitted that I have on occassion done so. My ethical discussion was on what you tell others about that climb you did where you stick clipped. Do you claim it was a clean redpoint, or do you admit to the stick clip before it is asked?
At Smith Rock, the choss at the bottom of most of the cliffs have severely eroded over the years, to where some climbs have actually increased in difficulty because the distance to the first bolt has increased, and in that increase is harder moves. So, many routes that originally had reasonably distant first bolts now have scary, highass bolts that people tend to stick clip.
Spray Warning (I only think it is fair to warn you)
One of my most favorite climbs at Smith is called Squashed Spider. It starts on a buttress with a lot of little nubbins and pockets, but the first bolt is a good 12-15 feet up on the buttress, and due to erosion, the bottom of the buttress is bulging and possibly slightly overhanging, and the landing is a slippery, sloping ledge, with a pile of small bouders below it. When the route was pioneered, the whole first pitch was unprotectable, so it originally was a 5.7X that the first ascenscionist allowed to be protected with bolts, to remove the X. So, many people might stick clip that first bolt, but I found that the route lacks much of it's appeal when I have climbed it on a toprope or by stickclipping that first bolt. Maybe I am a closet boulderer, but I enjoyed that unprotected climb to the first bolt. And, yes, stickclipping or toproping this climb seems to make me much more likely to flail getting to that first bolt. I feel much more centered on climbing this route when I have to make that first bolt, or drop to the ground, likely not landing on the path, but falling onto the rocks downhill of the path. And, yes, I have toproped it after leading it a few times, so I knew how to climb the route, I just didn't feel as in the zone when the rope is going up before me.
End Spray.
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 8:32 PM
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olderic, I like your quote about style.
I just noticed that it is rather ironic that during my posts today my post count moved my from freeclimb freak to redpoint maniac, what with my discussion on whether stickclipping allows for a redpoint.
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jt512
Feb 25, 2005, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: Spray Warning (I only think it is fair to warn you) One of my most favorite climbs at Smith is called Squashed Spider. It starts on a buttress with a lot of little nubbins and pockets, but the first bolt is a good 12-15 feet up on the buttress, and due to erosion, the bottom of the buttress is bulging and possibly slightly overhanging, and the landing is a slippery, sloping ledge, with a pile of small bouders below it. When the route was pioneered, the whole first pitch was unprotectable, so it originally was a 5.7X that the first ascenscionist allowed to be protected with bolts, to remove the X. So, many people might stick clip that first bolt, but I found that the route lacks much of it's appeal when I have climbed it on a toprope or by stickclipping that first bolt. Maybe I am a closet boulderer, but I enjoyed that unprotected climb to the first bolt. And, yes, stickclipping or toproping this climb seems to make me much more likely to flail getting to that first bolt. I feel much more centered on climbing this route when I have to make that first bolt, or drop to the ground, likely not landing on the path, but falling onto the rocks downhill of the path. And, yes, I have toproped it after leading it a few times, so I knew how to climb the route, I just didn't feel as in the zone when the rope is going up before me. End Spray.
I'm calling a meeting of the GoTY Award Committee on this one.
-Jay
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jakedatc
Feb 25, 2005, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: My ethical discussion was on what you tell others about that climb you did where you stick clipped. Do you claim it was a clean redpoint, or do you admit to the stick clip before it is asked?
Clean redpoint, onsite, flash, hang dog whatever happened does not change my view weather it was stick clipped or not
the people i talk to about routes i send either will know if a stick clip is usually used on that route or they dont and could care less either way
haha Jay.. classic
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 25, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: Every experienced sport climber I know uses a stick clip from time to time. -Jay
This is it. I don't own a stick-clip and don't like to do it. BUT, I have borrowed one once. It was a climb around my limit which started on a ledge high up and a fall before the first bolt could have resulted in a serious injury. The risk was not worth the reward. I don't really care if some people have a problem with that. Criticizing other people's methods comes from their own insecurities. Like I said, I don't like to use it and probably will not buy one, but from time to time it is not a bad thing.
Josh
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caughtinside
Feb 25, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #88 of 134
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In reply to: In reply to: Spray Warning (I only think it is fair to warn you) One of my most favorite climbs at Smith is called Squashed Spider. It starts on a buttress with a lot of little nubbins and pockets, but the first bolt is a good 12-15 feet up on the buttress, and due to erosion, the bottom of the buttress is bulging and possibly slightly overhanging, and the landing is a slippery, sloping ledge, with a pile of small bouders below it. When the route was pioneered, the whole first pitch was unprotectable, so it originally was a 5.7X that the first ascenscionist allowed to be protected with bolts, to remove the X. So, many people might stick clip that first bolt, but I found that the route lacks much of it's appeal when I have climbed it on a toprope or by stickclipping that first bolt. Maybe I am a closet boulderer, but I enjoyed that unprotected climb to the first bolt. And, yes, stickclipping or toproping this climb seems to make me much more likely to flail getting to that first bolt. I feel much more centered on climbing this route when I have to make that first bolt, or drop to the ground, likely not landing on the path, but falling onto the rocks downhill of the path. And, yes, I have toproped it after leading it a few times, so I knew how to climb the route, I just didn't feel as in the zone when the rope is going up before me. End Spray. I'm calling a meeting of the GoTY Award Committee on this one. -Jay
Good call. I nominate our friend abalch. Who is clearly living in fantasy land.
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jcinco
Feb 25, 2005, 10:12 PM
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OMFG!
Why do threads of this sort attract every righteous gumby in the forum??
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ikefromla
Feb 25, 2005, 10:23 PM
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i will use a stick clip to pre-clip the first bolt on a route i am working, if i feel it is necessary for safety and if that is standard practice at that cliff or that route (ie, it was bolted WITH that in mind and to avoid overbolting and such bullshit).
I will be first to admit that I have done this. hell, you can go check my ascents on my profile if you want and ask which climbs i stick-clipped the first bolt on (actually only one of my hard ascents).
it does not take away from the movement, the CLIMBING up to that one bolt. will i pre-clip the first four bolts and claim a redpoint? no way, but no experienced sport climber would, and the people arguing that are just hilarious.
Also, i started climbing 7 years ago (stop yourself, i know this is much longer than many people on here, and not nearly as long as plenty of you also.. so shush) and the term "pinkpoint" had been long extinct, only in the last couple years did people even begin to bring it up again.
I am 19. I am of the younger sport-climbing/bouldering generation (unlike most of my peers i consider myself more of a route-climber though). May I take a moment to point out the advances in difficult climbing that this younger generation has brought about? climbing 5.14 and V10 and higher are common practice. The hardest naturally protected climbs have been climbed by this generation of climbers (Tommy Caldwell on the Dihedral Wall to Alan Moor and his naturally protected ascent of Father's Day, 5.14a, placing all gear on lead). We came into this sport learning that a redpoint was to climb a route from beginning to end without falling, clipping protection on the way up, but not differentiating between pre-placed draws or not (this is regarding sport). it isn't done anymore. See Jay's posts, he's the quintessential sport climber on this site. in fact, just read Jay's responses, I second all of them.
and to clarify for someone a few pages back, stick clipping and chipping are very very VERY far apart on the ethics spectrum. chipping is not acceptable, nor popular, and the short-lived trend perfected by masters such as Yaniro died out in the early 90's.
peath out.
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maculated
Feb 25, 2005, 10:33 PM
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Oh people, people - while CI is being a little harsh because he's spicy like that, his point is valid.
Stick clipping a 5.7 may seem foolish to you because you're climbing a well-bolted route well within your ability. There's a sport route here (if the bolts 20 feet apart can be sport climbing) that's 5.7 that I've never led and never will lead because the first bolt is 30 feet off the deck. I can't stick clip it because of its position, and I don't like 5.7 face routes that come with that kind of problematic drama along with it. CI can also attest that ratings in SLO are a wee bit sandbagged.
This is, of course, unusual. BUT, if you go to certain climbing areas, you'll find that some areas are DESIGNED for stick clipping to (a) cut down on bolt placements and (b) cut down on bolt placements that won't really help prevent decking or (c) were bolted ground up on lead.
The routes that require this seem to start at 5.10 and above.
I used to be ethically opposed to the stick clip until I started to need it. If I'm on aid, gimme the clip. If I'm looking at a 5.11 move before the first bold, clip please! I like my bones whole and my climbing able to continue the next day.
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Spray Warning (I only think it is fair to warn you) One of my most favorite climbs at Smith is called Squashed Spider. It starts on a buttress with a lot of little nubbins and pockets, but the first bolt is a good 12-15 feet up on the buttress, and due to erosion, the bottom of the buttress is bulging and possibly slightly overhanging, and the landing is a slippery, sloping ledge, with a pile of small bouders below it. When the route was pioneered, the whole first pitch was unprotectable, so it originally was a 5.7X that the first ascenscionist allowed to be protected with bolts, to remove the X. So, many people might stick clip that first bolt, but I found that the route lacks much of it's appeal when I have climbed it on a toprope or by stickclipping that first bolt. Maybe I am a closet boulderer, but I enjoyed that unprotected climb to the first bolt. And, yes, stickclipping or toproping this climb seems to make me much more likely to flail getting to that first bolt. I feel much more centered on climbing this route when I have to make that first bolt, or drop to the ground, likely not landing on the path, but falling onto the rocks downhill of the path. And, yes, I have toproped it after leading it a few times, so I knew how to climb the route, I just didn't feel as in the zone when the rope is going up before me. End Spray. I'm calling a meeting of the GoTY Award Committee on this one. -Jay
Wow!! An award?!! Just for me?!!! I don't know what to say..
I would like to thank everyone at the Academy...... (sorry wrong speach)
Really, what's with this Goatee Award? It being still kind of winterish in the Northwest, I don't settle for the pansy little goatee, my beard is full!! 8^)
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jt512
Feb 25, 2005, 10:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Spray Warning (I only think it is fair to warn you) One of my most favorite climbs at Smith is called Squashed Spider. It starts on a buttress with a lot of little nubbins and pockets, but the first bolt is a good 12-15 feet up on the buttress, and due to erosion, the bottom of the buttress is bulging and possibly slightly overhanging, and the landing is a slippery, sloping ledge, with a pile of small bouders below it. When the route was pioneered, the whole first pitch was unprotectable, so it originally was a 5.7X that the first ascenscionist allowed to be protected with bolts, to remove the X. So, many people might stick clip that first bolt, but I found that the route lacks much of it's appeal when I have climbed it on a toprope or by stickclipping that first bolt. Maybe I am a closet boulderer, but I enjoyed that unprotected climb to the first bolt. And, yes, stickclipping or toproping this climb seems to make me much more likely to flail getting to that first bolt. I feel much more centered on climbing this route when I have to make that first bolt, or drop to the ground, likely not landing on the path, but falling onto the rocks downhill of the path. And, yes, I have toproped it after leading it a few times, so I knew how to climb the route, I just didn't feel as in the zone when the rope is going up before me. End Spray. I'm calling a meeting of the GoTY Award Committee on this one. -Jay Wow!! An award?!! Just for me?!!! I don't know what to say.. I would like to thank everyone at the Academy...... (sorry wrong speach) Really, what's with this Goatee Award? It being still kind of winterish in the Northwest, I don't settle for the pansy little goatee, my beard is full!! 8^)
Congratulations, Abalch, in honor of your 12 feet of unprotected 5.7 climbing to the first bolt without marring the aesthetics of the route by sticklipping, you have been made a Gumby of the Year Nominee ® ! Award category to be determined, but I'm thinking maybe the Gumby Boldness Category.
-Jay
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Jay, I am just happy to be nominated. I mean, the fame, the hot gumby groupies, the ....ah, who gives a sh!t
The whole point of my little story, is that some people, and I have seen them, will stick clip that very same climb. And, for them, it makes them feel good. I, feel good to climb that twelve feet without stickclipping. I think sometimes people forget as they progress in the sport what they may have gone through with their own progression. To me stick clipping that climb doesn't feel right, but I don't tell those I see stick clip it they must stop. And, sometimes even short trips to the first bolt can result in ugly consequences. A previous post I made around a year ago, I was speaking about how I fumbled my first cam on a route that resulted in me taking around a twelve to fifteen foot fall to the top of a boulder, then skidding down the rocky slope after bouncing off that boulder. I broke a helmet, I reinjured my shoulder from where I had cracked the shoulder blade snowboarding, and therefore did not climb for about four months. That all was on a 5.8 I had climbed before with no problem. So, perhaps, if there had been a way to stick clip that route (couldn't, it was trad) I would have benefited from doing so.
It seems with all of the claims of elitism being thrown around here today, that it is most of the people that climb harder that are demonstrating the elitism. I mean, come on, we all know that 12s are harder than 7s, I never tried to deny that. I made a few comments about how I PERSONALLy feel most of the time about stick clipping. Not trying to spray, just trying to give you more experienced climbers insight into the mind of a sucky climber who still doesn't much like to stick clip personally, but allows others have their own opinions.
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jt512
Feb 25, 2005, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: Bold and Spicy! What does 12 feet of unprotected 5.7 feel like? :lol:
Don't ask me, Man. You wouldn't catch me doing it.
-Jay
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caughtinside
Feb 25, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Bold and Spicy! What does 12 feet of unprotected 5.7 feel like? :lol:
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 11:14 PM
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In reply to: Bold and Spicy! What does 12 feet of unprotected 5.7 feel like? :lol:
feels nice, just like I imagine it feels nice when you climb. Twelve feet can still suck if you fall. Look above this post and at some year old posts about me taking about a twelve footer and breaking a helmet, and messing my back up again.
Have you always been an elite climber?
We each progress at our own speed, and I admit I don't get out nearly as often as I would like, and that inhibits how fast I can progress.
Luckily, I can be happy being a sucky climber. With my schedule this last year, and what the future seems to hold, I will likely be one for awhile. As "they" say, better a bad day climbing, then a good day working.
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powderhound
Feb 25, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Just my humble opinion that if you have to stick clip the first blot, it is just like toproping it. It takes what little risk there is in sport climbing and demolishes it. If you have to stick clip the first bolt then don't climb that route. I know that there are cetian routes @ smith in particular that Watts put the bolt so high it could not be stick clipped and I for one agree. If you don't feel comfortable climbing 10-15 feet unprotected then go to a gym and and top rope something.
Peace
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abalch
Feb 25, 2005, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: Just my humble opinion that if you have to stick clip the first blot, it is just like toproping it. It takes what little risk there is in sport climbing and demolishes it. If you have to stick clip the first bolt then don't climb that route. I know that there are cetian routes @ smith in particular that Watts put the bolt so high it could not be stick clipped and I for one agree. If you don't feel comfortable climbing 10-15 feet unprotected then go to a gym and and top rope something. Peace
Oh, but you haven't seen some of the people who climb at Smith, and bring the twenty foot extendable painting pole to stick clip with. :lol:
But, very good point. Some developers put their first bolt high, but not intending them to be stick clipped. So much of Smith was developed without the idea of stick clippiing, and then stickclipping became popular. It seems akin to the debate that people have about how if a first ascenscionist only placed two bolts, to add any bolts to the route without checking with the FA violates their route. Or people complain about things that people might do to lower a climb to their abilities. Now, UNLESS it is widely known that a route is intending to have its first bolt stick clipped, to do so lowers the commitment, not the grade, but the sense of commitment it takes to climb to that first bolt.
Yes, it is kind of idealic to argue this point, but would you retrobolt an X rated climb to lower its danger for yourself? Yes, I know that stickclipping doesn't permanently alter the rock like bolting does, but it is similar, isn't it? Unless everyone you spoke to knew that you lowered the commitment it takes to climb the first part of the route, if you just say you redpointed the route, and it is known how daring that route is considered in the area, it equates your accomplishment to the daring first ascenscionist who did not feel that bolt was too far from the ground to clip on lead, instead of stickclipping. It's true in the end this all amounts to little, but we all have to have our ethics, whether we aggree or not with what they should be.
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olderic
Feb 25, 2005, 11:34 PM
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In reply to: will i pre-clip the first four bolts and claim a redpoint? no way, but no experienced sport climber would, and the people arguing that are just hilarious.
Boone Speed - Ice Cream. Ok I think it was only 3 bolts. You get into trouble with absolutes ("no experienced sport climber would")... But it is just sports climbing people - if it (what ever style you choose) makes you feel good - do it.
But to pose a different question: A number of you have stated that you chose to stick clip because you can't justify the risk otherwise (and occasionally rationalize it because the route was bolted with that in mind, just like the rationalization for no longer differentiating red from pink is because the routes were bolted with the idea that a draw would be on them for clipping - sometimes even a double draw), so you go ahead and stick clipped and had a wonderful time and lived happily ever after. My question is - what do you think if/when someone comes along and does that route without stick clipping:
1. "he is better then me"
2. "he is insane - probably has nothing to live for (unlike me)"
3. "I might try it that way next time"
4. "I wish I had done it that way first time"
5. something else
This is not a troll - I have sport climbed in every style possible. I have trad climbed yo-yo style back in the day. I don't really care but am amused by how worked up people get about it and how a person's ability or lack of it keep getting dragged in when the worth of their opion is being weighed. On and just for the record I have led about 2 dozen sport 12's with about 1/2 of them stick clipped and probably the majority of them with the draws pre hung although some I have red-pointed in the strictist style. It's all good.
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