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md3
Nov 18, 2004, 3:34 PM
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I use screamers on the harness ends of my tethers (3) when doing long routes by myself for those times where I don’t feel comfortable free soloing and it would take too long to rope solo the pitch. I leap frog pieces through a short crux or a place with loose rock or ice that I might slip on, trying to always keep 2 pieces in. This saves a massive amount of time over rope soloing and seconding every pitch, which makes it possible to do routes that would otherwise take too much time, but don’t try this if you don’t understand the serious risks and aren’t on terrain where you will be able to up and down climb though the hardest parts as is necessary to place and clean gear when leapfrogging placements. Even with the screamer, the reality is that a full 2x tether length fall onto a single piece could rip it in many situations and the second is far from guaranteed to hold either -- so you have to climb extremely conservatively, avoiding full air falls at all costs.
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dingus
Nov 18, 2004, 3:40 PM
Post #52 of 70
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My Master who taught me advanced crack climbing skills used them a lot. He got me into the habit. This guy climbed on a thin rack, by most standards skeletal. We did Steck Salathe (Grade V, 5.10) with Friends 1-3.5 (1 each!), 6 nuts and some small cams. That was normal for this guy, who learned crack climbing from the School of Pratt (ie run it OUT). It was certainly not normal for me and I would take bigger cams on many of the routes we did (hindsight is yummy!).
What a thin rack can translate to is one of 2 scenarios... you end up with less than ideal placements because you lack the depth of rack, or you run it out to find a better placement (usually #2 is the correct response but not always). In either case having a screamer on that last piece adds one more layer of gottchya. This from a 'right is light' fanatic. So while I agree with the less is more philosophy to some extent... I think a thin rack on a big route demands MORE screamers, not less.
I have a bunch. When Brutus and I hook up we could easily have a pile of 20 of them!
I have fallen on marginal pro and fully extended screamers twice. My Bro's have zippered others. None of those pieces ultimately failed, so there is a nug for your anecdotal bowl.
Never for sport. I steer clear of sport routes that may call for one (bad bolts). My Master used to use them clipping bolts at sport crags too, much to the amusement of others. He didn't care. "They're draws too, right?"
Always for aid and ice. The first 4 screws of an ice lead are going to get them. I don't aid all that much so that one is more esoteric.
Trad... Depends (TM). Long old school grade IV or V in Yoemite? Take em to clip some of the many fixed pieces of shit you may encounter. Short trad lead with known protection requirements... heed the requirements!
Like I said I use em a lot. My partners laugh at me sometimes and make fun at my insistence with carrying them on the sharp end. I chewed Burl out one fine morning, for using one thoughtlessly in a belay.
"That fucking screamer you got there won't do me any good on lead!"
Burl was so pissed he short dicked me for the next 4 ropelengths.
Bastard! I had it coming though.
In terms of noobs, I recommend you dismiss these arguments about whether you are experienced enough to possess one. Rather, I recommend you use YOUR brains to evaluate WHERE you climb, WHAT you climb and the types of protection likely to be encountered on these routes and equip yourselves accordingly. This ryan person seems to be taking the right approach... first pass research, intelligent questions and further research, then presumably, an on-goig decision process to decide whether they are necessary or unnecessary.
Lots of good advice in this thread and even the thin crack discussion is a good one. It is OK for climbers to disagree on gear choices, ya know?
Lastly ryan, once you start a thread you cede control over its direction. It is unreasonable for you to tell people what they can and cannot discuss in "your" thread.
Not lastly, this is last... if the area a noob leader climbs at calls for thin crack protection, that noob trad leader would be freaking stupid not to acquire some thin crack protection!
DMT
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dirtineye
Nov 18, 2004, 5:21 PM
Post #53 of 70
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In reply to: I carried screamers for around five years.(on trad) Rarely placed them. Never fell on one. For the most part, they have joined my hexes and tricams in the closet. Less is more.
Can I have your first blue and your brown tricam then? Hell I'll take em all! Several times I've wished for a second brown or small blue.
Um, what do you put in highly irregular placements if our tricams are in the closet?
BTW, My tricams have always been out of the closet, and are happily living together and kissing in public. they hope that they can be married soon in conneticut or san francisco. Yes, it's true folks, tricams are GAY.
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 18, 2004, 5:37 PM
Post #54 of 70
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In reply to: Um, what do you put in highly irregular placements if our tricams are in the closet?
There were a number of key beta tri-cam placements in j-tree where having them made a huge difference. Flexible friends came out that would work almost as well and they were more versatile. When aliens came out the tri-cams pretty much got retired.
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chossdog
Nov 18, 2004, 5:39 PM
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I've found ice screams useful for protecting running belays on mountaineering routes (read: fewer anchors + big fall force). They're somewhat reassuring when clipping a questionable picket or fluke. I've got 8 rigged out as alpine quickdraws and use them on most ice climbs.
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cchildre
Nov 18, 2004, 5:53 PM
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Screamer basically spreads the load generated from a fall. Trad climbing I know they are typically used on micronuts and microcams idealy place that are rated below the typical 10Kn standard and therefore are less likely to hold a signifacant fall. The screamer lowers the peak impact force by spreading over a greater span of time allowing a micronut rated at 4Kn to hold a significant fall. Not a beginners toy, definately for the experienced climber. I do think that ice climbers use these far more than us trad boys.
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timd
Nov 20, 2004, 3:18 AM
Post #57 of 70
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I am actually thinking of screamers for my ice rack. Here are some stats. For a fall factor of 2 you can place up to 9kn of force on your pro. Now the longer the screamer the more force is absorbed. The shorter screamers reduce impact force to about 6kn and the longer screamer reduces that impact force down to 3kn. That is a big reduction. Now for me I weigh 150 lbs. fully dressed and soaking wet. I place a screw every 5 ft. or so. Ido not think I really need a screamer do you?
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fear
Nov 20, 2004, 3:55 AM
Post #58 of 70
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In reply to: I place a screw every 5 ft. or so. Ido not think I really need a screamer do you?
People are funny. Some funny ones here like to think they absolutely know when a piece is bomber. Some like to "just not fall". LOL... They'll usually get away with it too. Depends on how much you can convince yourself you're in total control of the situation. Someday though most of these funny folks learn the hard way they're not in as much control as they'd like....
Screamers just stack the odds in your favor. They're not difficult to use or have any downside other than a bit more weight than a standard quickdraw.
Personally on ice I clip a big ol' Yates zipper-screamer to the first few screws and a standard screamer to every one after that. So does everyone I climb with now. There's soooo many more variables in ice protection that I feel it's certainly worth the added weight.
You're placing a screw every 5 feet? Geez! Well, when you get to the steeper and longer stuff you won't be. But even now with one every 5 feet if you get 5 feet over your last screw and fall if that last screw rips out your going for a 20 foot ride. On the lower angle stuff you're probably on that means a nasty fall with potential for major injury. Say your 3 or 4 hours hiking time from the car. Well, that's 3 or 4 hours with two ankles. Now you've got a bit of a bloody mess eh?......
I like 'em.....
-Fear
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timd
Nov 24, 2004, 3:37 AM
Post #59 of 70
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Actually fear, what I was referring to was this. I do not think that a fall like that would even generate enough force to deploy a screamer. I was not trying to be funny or arrogant.
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scott_davidson
Nov 24, 2004, 4:05 AM
Post #60 of 70
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I didnt read all that shit so sorry if its been mentioned but one of the most important reasons i end up carrying a screamer is when setting my own rappells (climbs that dont have fixed raps). We almost always set a bomber piece and set the rap up off that and then have another bomber piece above with a screamer and just a little slop so that you know the piece you are leaving is holding the rappel. That way if the rap anchor fails you dont shock the back up because the screamer absorbs the shock. So if the lightest climber goes last he can pull the back up anchor and rap off the single nut. This is nice cause you can use something like a cam or ice screw for the backup, and a nut or vthread as the fixed rappel piece.
scott
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eray01
Nov 25, 2004, 5:14 PM
Post #61 of 70
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Don't worry about it. I'm sure you don't need them yet.
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stymingersfink
Mar 15, 2005, 11:25 PM
Post #62 of 70
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bump
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onsight_endorphines
Mar 16, 2005, 12:29 AM
Post #63 of 70
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Sequence of events when using a screamer, as I understand it:
1. Leader falls, taking slack from the rope
2. No more slack, forces begin to be exerted on the whole system
3. If forces are great enough, threads begin ripping in any screamer(s) present
4. Threads ripping at the right frequency causes gate flutter in carabiners
5. Screamers max out, threads stop ripping, and gates stop fluttering
6. Forces are further absorbed by the system until either A). The fall is stopped, or B). Something gives.
During steps 4, 5, 6, and 7, how is it possible for the rope to come out of the carabiners?? There's a huge amount of force keeping everything clamped together!
So why again is gate flutter significant? It sounds like uneducated climber physics BS to me......however, I am most likely wrong. So - thoughts anyone?
Thanks.
EDIT: added the following:
I realize that not everything happens according to theory...and come to think of it, that's probably the point of my post. To find out why.
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cyanamid
Mar 16, 2005, 12:43 AM
Post #64 of 70
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In reply to: So why again is gate flutter significant? It sounds like uneducated climber physics BS to me......however, I am most likely wrong. So - thoughts anyone?
Err... The issue is not with the rope coming out of the carabiner, rather the issue is that a gate that has fluttered open, even if only a 1/8 of an inch, is still subject to the same open gate strength rating stamped on the side of the 'biner. :wink:
I'll be the first to admit that it seems unlikely that the gate will have fluttered open at exactly the same time it is loaded above its open rated strength. Still, when I emailed Yates about it, they recommended using wiregates to reduce the flutter effect.
So I do.
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cchildre
Mar 16, 2005, 3:29 PM
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I wonder, does the screamer actually activate itself during a lead fall if it is installed anywhere except the first placement or the placement lead placement. One would think that forces generated on placements between the first and lead would be significantlly less, especially if a good rope line is maintained and did not meander too much. So if used for a questionable placement and no fall was taken till later in the climb, your screamer could survive to see another climb. Just a consideration. On the gate flutter, wiregates are the key. The weight of the solid gate is what causes it to flutter so, the lighter wire gate is more easily held in place by the spring acting upon it and thus far less likely to flutter. Seems to make sense to me.
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estwing
Mar 16, 2005, 3:43 PM
Post #66 of 70
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similar topic
http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83647&highlight=
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 16, 2005, 8:13 PM
Post #67 of 70
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alpnclmbr1 moved this thread from Beginners to Trad Climbing.
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ryan112ryan
Mar 16, 2005, 9:12 PM
Post #68 of 70
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does anyone use the aid screamers on really sketchy peices? they have a lower activation point, but reduces the force less. i know they are made for aid, but ive heard people use them for trad
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healyje
Mar 16, 2005, 9:28 PM
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It's always interesting to read discussions like this waxing back and forth between the theoretical, test, and actual. I can only add actual. I and my compadres have always used them for free climbing on marginal pro such as rp's, thin Crack N' Ups, Skyhooks, and the smallest Lowe Balls. We have blown dozens of them over the years (both old, bar-tacked, Wild Things Air Voyagers and new line stitched Yates Screamers). Taking 30 footers on the old Air Voyagers used to blow about 14-22 bar tacks. On Screamers 2-5" is pretty common.
As mentioned I typically I use them individual marginal pieces, but I have also used them on "nests" or circles of equalized micropro at a crux. In these situations I pre-slice the stitching at a steep angle so they definitely tear and start doing so fast but gradually to "load" or "set" the equalization of the nest of pieces. This has always worked for me and have never blown a piece or nest I've used one on - so far anyway...
As far as the gate flutter - yes this did happen in real life and in tests on the old bar tacked Air Voyagers (we didn't experience it) - but is not a factor in the line stitched Screamers. I personally wouldn't bother using lockers except when using one at the belay while roped soloing. Then I tie a figure 8 in the end of the rope and clip it to one of the screamer lockers and a butterfly 3' up and clip that to the other screamer locker and clip the figure 8 end locker into my anchor. This gives you load limiting with the rope still acting as backup.
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onsight_endorphines
Mar 17, 2005, 11:49 PM
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Quote from Cynamid:In reply to: Err... The issue is not with the rope coming out of the carabiner, rather the issue is that a gate that has fluttered open, even if only a 1/8 of an inch, is still subject to the same open gate strength rating stamped on the side of the 'biner
Damn, of course. Thanks.
When the screamer begins to activate (and the gate hasn't yet begun to flutter), I guess there is not enough force at that point in time to "lock" the gate into place as the 'biner is being pulled apart. Guess it takes more force to hold the gate into place than it does to activate a screamer...
I'm thinking this would make a great high-speed video clip, if the flutter even occurred :D. Cool stuff, thanks for your time.
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