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bigjonnyc
May 6, 2005, 12:47 PM
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I'm a pretty new to climbing; I climbed with my girlfriend for about 6 months, before school got too time consuming and we lapsed for about 6 months. Well I've been back at it for a few weeks now, and when we got to the gym last night an acquaintance of ours, who came with no one to climb with, asked to jump in with us. She was belaying me while I cleanly climbed my first 5.10 and after lowering me she commented on my good form, emphasizing my use of a drop-knee. I didn't ask her at the time, but I'm just wondering what a drop-knee is. Thanks.
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jackflash
May 6, 2005, 1:13 PM
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http://www.mountain.ru/...hnique/drop-knee.jpg
Your knee points down instead of up. This move helps bring your hips close to the rock. Its very useful if you don't have a lot of flexibility in spreading your legs.
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azrockclimber
May 6, 2005, 1:32 PM
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talk about the best possible answer...pic and all!... thats it plain and simple. This is rockclimbing.com at its best.
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overlord
May 7, 2005, 7:40 AM
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this technique really shines on overhangs and roofs with positivish holds.
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wingnut
May 7, 2005, 4:05 PM
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What's the differnence between a drop-knee and a back step?
I'm not new to climbing, I just always thought that was called a back step.
:? :?: pleases explain.
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spacemonkey07
May 10, 2005, 2:22 PM
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I always thought it was called 'egyptian'. Or is this just some other name, which you could also use.
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jcr
May 10, 2005, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: What's the differnence between a drop-knee and a back step?
Besides the fact that a drop-knee isnt always used to grab a hold "behind you", as in the backstep, and that in the backstep your knee is not facing down.... many times its almost the same thing.
JC
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shiggetyshiva
May 10, 2005, 2:53 PM
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A drop knee can be thought of as a variation of a back step, but doesn't have to involve a backstep. Many times a drop knee move works well when you go from a wide stance where you're edging with the insides of both shoes to turn one of your knees inward and down, pivoting your toe on the same hold you were edging on before. As the photo posted above shows, the drop knee stance allows you better leverage when making longer static reaches.
Probably a physics student or teacher somewhere could diagram the vectors and the technicalities of the drop knee's virtue.
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jt512
May 10, 2005, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: talk about the best possible answer...pic and all!... thats it plain and simple. This is rockclimbing.com at its best.
Actually, his comment after the pic is incorrect. The move pictured is a dropknee. However, the majority of the comments in this thread are wrong or confusing.
-Jay
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micon
May 10, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: However, the majority of the comments in this thread are wrong or confusing. -Jay
I agree some of them are confusing and I'm not sure about there validity, so would be so kind as to enlighten us misinformed and confused climbers about the practicality of the Dropknee, instead of just saying that everyone is wrong?
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jt512
May 10, 2005, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: However, the majority of the comments in this thread are wrong or confusing. -Jay I agree some of them are confusing and I'm not sure about there validity, so would be so kind as to enlighten us misinformed and confused climbers about the practicality of the Dropknee, instead of just saying that everyone is wrong?
The practicality of the dropknee? It is a requisite skill for steep climibing.
-Jay
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jackflash
May 10, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: Actually, his comment after the pic is incorrect.
I'd certainly call it simplified, but what did I write that is incorrect?
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maculated
May 10, 2005, 4:58 PM
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Jack, it's the flexibility comment. If this guy were spreading his legs out wide instead of drop-kneeing, he'd have a lot harder time getting to the hold. It's an energy-saving move, and a move that extends reach when done properly.
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jt512
May 10, 2005, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Actually, his comment after the pic is incorrect. I'd certainly call it simplified, but what did I write that is incorrect?
This part: "Its very useful if you don't have a lot of flexibility in spreading your legs. "
Look at the picture you posted. Even I could spread my legs far enough to span those foot holds!
The most common use of the drop knee is to stem, or span, two holds, except that one hip is turned into the wall, making one foot a front foot and the other foot a back foot, and the outside edge of the back foot is in contract with the back foot hold. The advantages over a frontal span are that the body's center of gravity is closer to the wall, which takes weight off the arms, and allows a longer reach with the hand on the backstepped side of the body.
-Jay
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shiggetyshiva
May 10, 2005, 5:13 PM
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just dug this up to try to help clarify with something other than more words
http://www.climbingfilms.com/videos/videoInfo.php?vidID=239&type=1
watch the second climber featured in this film - he does several drop knees. kind of hard to see his legs well because of the camera angle but if you keep watching you'll see the move done several times
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jackflash
May 10, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Look at the picture you posted. Even I could spread my legs far enough to span those foot holds!
I'm sure most of us could, and while the drop-knee's circumvention of good flexibility wasn't meant to be illustrated by the picture (I picked the first one google found) I think it still applies to it. Any of us could reach those holds by simply opening our legs, but to get as close to the wall as a drop knee would allow us to be would require extraordinary flexibility. Thus, since we aren't that flexible, a drop knee is better.
I'm not saying a drop-knee gets around flexibility in all circumstances, but I've certainly used it to do so back when I wasn't so limber.
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jt512
May 10, 2005, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Look at the picture you posted. Even I could spread my legs far enough to span those foot holds! I'm sure most of us could, and while the drop-knee's circumvention of good flexibility wasn't meant to be illustrated by the picture (I picked the first one google found) I think it still applies to it. Any of us could reach those holds by simply opening our legs, but to get as close to the wall as a drop knee would allow us to be would require extraordinary flexibility. Thus, since we aren't that flexible, a drop knee is better. I'm not saying a drop-knee gets around flexibility in all circumstances, but I've certainly used it to do so back when I wasn't so limber.
If you say so. I don't think it has much of anything to do with getting around a lack of hip flexibility. When the move is appropriate it is biomechanically superior to frontal stemming. Look at the pic I posted. I could frontally stem those holds, but the move would be 10 times as strenuous and still wouldn't give me the reach that the drop knee does.
-Jay
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aikibujin
May 10, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: What's the differnence between a drop-knee and a back step?
If I understood the terms correctly (a big IF), the main difference between the drop knee and back step is the use of opposing force in a drop knee.
A "back step" involves stepping on a foot hold with the outside edge of one foot and turning your hip into the rock. You can do this with one foot: back step with one foot and flag the other foot.
A "drop knee" uses a similar body motion, but involves both feet. You push out (to the side of your body) with both feet to "lock" yourself to the rock. On overhanging routes, this helps to hold your lower body close to the wall and take weight off of your arms. In Jay's picture, notice how his feet are pushing down AND to his side, if either of his feet are not pushing against the other, he would not be able to hold that position.
My $0.02.
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jt512
May 11, 2005, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's the differnence between a drop-knee and a back step? If I understood the terms correctly (a big IF), the main difference between the drop knee and back step is the use of opposing force in a drop knee. A "back step" involves stepping on a foot hold with the outside edge of one foot and turning your hip into the rock. You can do this with one foot: back step with one foot and flag the other foot. A "drop knee" uses a similar body motion, but involves both feet. You push out (to the side of your body) with both feet to "lock" yourself to the rock. On overhanging routes, this helps to hold your lower body close to the wall and take weight off of your arms. In Jay's picture, notice how his feet are pushing down AND to his side, if either of his feet are not pushing against the other, he would not be able to hold that position. My $0.02.
I agree with you that, as most often used, the drop knee is a type span; that is, it uses opposition between the foot holds. I tend to think of a "back step" as just a foot position (namely, when the outside edge of the foot is on the hold). That is, in a drop knee, one foot is back stepping. What you are referring to as a "back step" some climbers call a "twist lock," which is the other common move that involves a back step: one foot (say, the right, is back stepping, the other foot is usually flagged forward, and movement is achieved by twisting the (right) hip into the wall and pulling across the body with the opposite arm.
Unfortunately, the term "twist lock" hasn't really caught on, and so there is confusion between "back step" meaning the foot position and "back step" meaning the twist lock move.
-Jay
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aikibujin
May 11, 2005, 9:15 PM
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I agree that "back step" is just a foot position. Adding the "turning hip into the rock" was over thinking on my part and probably unnecessary. I just felt that whenever I'm back stepping, I always had my hip turned into the rock.
Thanks for explaining the term "twist lock". I also use this term, but I agree that you don't hear it as often as "back step". I generally think of it as a arm/body position: twisting the body so one arm is pulling across the body to give the other arm a longer reach. No doubt twist locks are very commonly used in combination with back steps, but since I think of it as just a arm/body position, there are moves that I consider are twist locks, but don't involve back stepping or drop knees.
For example, if I'm using a left heel hook and a left handhold, I then flag my right foot to my left behind my left foot, twisting my body to my left (left hand across my body), reach for a higher hand hold with my right hand, I personally would call that a twist lock also.
EDIT: I've digged up a few photos, I would call the moves in the photos "twist lock". I'd like to know what do you think? Would these moves be called something else?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=46728
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=44763
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=47217
In reply to: I agree with you that, as most often used, the drop knee is a type span; that is, it uses opposition between the foot holds. I tend to think of a "back step" as just a foot position (namely, when the outside edge of the foot is on the hold). That is, in a drop knee, one foot is back stepping. What you are referring to as a "back step" some climbers call a "twist lock," which is the other common move that involves a back step: one foot (say, the right, is back stepping, the other foot is usually flagged forward, and movement is achieved by twisting the (right) hip into the wall and pulling across the body with the opposite arm. Unfortunately, the term "twist lock" hasn't really caught on, and so there is confusion between "back step" meaning the foot position and "back step" meaning the twist lock move. -Jay |
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jt512
May 11, 2005, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: EDIT: I've digged up a few photos, I would call the moves in the photos "twist lock". I'd like to know what do you think? Would these moves be called something else? http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=46728 http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=44763 http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=47217
Yes, I'd say all three of them are twist locks.
-Jay
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