|
|
|
|
aikibujin
Aug 19, 2005, 12:34 PM
Post #26 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 408
|
You have already gotten some really good advice, I'll just repeat stuff that has already been said, and repackage it as my own brand of advice.
In reply to: So the question is... buy doubles and use twin technique or just buy twins and don't let the second fall very far??
1. On a zig-zagging pitch, double ropes if used properly reduces the rope drag, and thus reduces the impact force in case of a fall.
2. Like davidji mentioned, you can protect your second better on a section of traverse with double rope technique.
3. It is generally considered safe to follow on a single strand of doubles. That's a questionable practice with twins.
In reply to: I think it would be safe to second on a single twin or double as it is extremely difficult to generate any serous fall forces when following.
In reply to: In reply to: If you were following a traversing pitch you might appreciate if the leader hadn't clipped both ropes to each piece. Double rope technique can be much better than single/twin technique for protecting a traverse for the second. Wait... huh? When I follow a traversing pitch on a single line, I like there to be a good bit of pro, and all chest high or higher. This shouldn't change if you use twin ropes, because you treat them both as a single line. If you were using doubles, and only alternating each piece, with a second on each line (two followers), then each second would only have half the pro. Sounds much worse to me. In fact, I'm having trouble visualizing how double technique would be better for protecting the second at all. ...?
I think you're thinking purely of a horizontal traverse, where davidji is talking about a "L" shaped pitch in which you have a horizontal traverse followed by a vertical section. When using single or twins, if the leader place a piece right at the end of the traverse to protect themselves on the start of the vertical section, they set up their second for a pendulum fall (possibly into an obstacle like a corner) if the second peels off before reaching that last piece on the traverse. To reduce the pendulum, the leader either have to downclimb after they get a good piece higher up and back clean the piece at the end of the traverse (time consuming); or not place a piece at the end of the traverse, and run it out as high as they can to set up a high piece for the second (put themselves at a higher risk). With double ropes, the leader can place a piece at the end of the traverse, clip rope A to that piece, then climb up higher and clip rope B to another high piece. If the second falls before the last piece on the traverse, rope B will catch them first, lessen the pendulum. If the leader has two seconds, the one on rope B can climb first, and unclip rope A from the last piece on the traverse to give the other second a safer fall.
Again, since we are talking about traverses, do you feel comfortable taking a pendulum fall on a single strand of 7.xmm cord? The doubles I use are 8.9mm Beal Verdon II. I could go thinner to save even more weight, but I'd rather not.
|
|
|
|
|
outdoorsie
Aug 19, 2005, 2:47 PM
Post #27 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 302
|
In reply to: You have already gotten some really good advice, I'll just repeat stuff that has already been said, and repackage it as my own brand of advice.
Ahhh thanks everbody! I know I (partially) hijacked this thread, but wow, I've learned a lot. Of course, take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt, but now I'm looking at elogation and impact ratings on ropes with a new perspective.
Yeah, now that I have a better idea of how thin twins really are, I'm sure we were climbing on doubles. As I did belay our guide on both ropes, and I remember him being tied into both, I'm now pretty sure he was using twin technique with the doubles.
I guess I'll be looking into doubles used as doubles for our future adventures. If we need to have the same directional for both seconds, just use two carbiners. I see why using two ropes through your pro can increase the impact force, and that's definately something to take into consideration.
And Aikibujin, thanks for being more specific on the traverses..... oh yeah! I guess I just always figured it was the leader's job to run out the first vertical section so that the second is appropriately protected. With doubles used as described, the leader can be better protected and the second is no worse off.
Thanks everybody!
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 19, 2005, 2:52 PM
Post #28 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: To really confuse the issue, I remember that in Valdez, many folks who do super long ice routes there prefer a single strand 300'+ double (8.5). This is an issue with Factor 2 falls but you have half as many. Use a screamer on your first piece off the belay. The longer your pitch, the lower your fall factor, the less belay station BS and you still get double length raps. Jeff
My buddy Stu used to use a rig like this. The only downside, and it IS a downside, is someone has to carry that rope. Yuk. But still, it worked well.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
chucky
Aug 19, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #29 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 53
|
Lets say im using double rope tech.... however the route requires me to clip both ropes to a single piece of pro. Using a seperate clip for each rope is my goal.
way 1) Would be to extend the piece and add an extra biner to the end of the sling...clipping each double to its own biner.
way2) would be to clip one rope to the extended sling then the other rope to the racking biner on the cams cable loop, or to a stoppers cable loop. Does this cause a problem since the two ropes are not clipped parrell to each other?
|
|
|
|
|
qpang
Aug 19, 2005, 4:29 PM
Post #30 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 6, 2004
Posts: 121
|
check out this diagram to help you understand how double rope technique is better for protecting a traverse....
http://www.gunks.com/index.php?pageid=67&pagenum=3&smGroup=2&smID=4
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
Aug 19, 2005, 5:20 PM
Post #31 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
In reply to: Lets say im using double rope tech.... however the route requires me to clip both ropes to a single piece of pro. Using a seperate clip for each rope is my goal. way 1) Would be to extend the piece and add an extra biner to the end of the sling...clipping each double to its own biner. way2) would be to clip one rope to the extended sling then the other rope to the racking biner on the cams cable loop, or to a stoppers cable loop. Does this cause a problem since the two ropes are not clipped parrell to each other?
I don't know under what circumstance you would be required to clip both doubles to one piece, but if you had to option 2 is better. If you have two biners on the same sling with two ropes clipped separately to each biner, you will create a lot of rope drag. You can try this at home and you'll see what I mean.
|
|
|
|
|
chucky
Aug 19, 2005, 5:30 PM
Post #32 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 53
|
In reply to: I don't know under what circumstance you would be required to clip both doubles to one piece, but if you had to option 2 is better. If you have two biners on the same sling with two ropes clipped separately to each biner, you will create a lot of rope drag. You can try this at home and you'll see what I mean.
Lets say the route allows for pro on either side of the leader, making double tech easy....then the route moves into a single crack/dihedral. So you no longer have the option of spaced out pro.
So at this time is it ok to use the double rope tech...even though the ropes will be running over each other? (i.e...im in a dihedral clip red then climb up clip blue climb up clip red)
or is this when some people clip both ropes to a single piece using different biners?
|
|
|
|
|
abalch
Aug 19, 2005, 5:32 PM
Post #33 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 179
|
In reply to: 55kg it is then, thanks for the clarification. As for not clipping double ropes through the same biner, I disagree. I thumbed through the booklet that came with my Mammut doubles and it said that is just fine. I suppose clipping each rope through a seperate biner is ideal, but I just dont see it being worth the time and effort. Changing the oil in my car every day would be ideal. How could it be ok to clip two Twins to the same biner, which are thinner than Doubles, but not doubles? Thinking it through, I dont see how the amount of friction from the two ropes rubbing against each other is going to be enough to damage the rope. It is not like pulling a rope after rapping off a sling where the rope is rubbing against the same part of the sling, in which case the rope will burn through a sling. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do have Doubles and I do clip them through the same piece.
the reason it is not a good idea has already been discussed ad naseum. If you had previously on the same pitch used your double ropes in traditional double rope manner, ie each rope clipped seperately to pieces of protection, and then you bring them back together in one carabiner, you could conceivably have twice as much rope fed out on one rope as the other. This means twice as much rope stretch, and if one rope streches twice as much as the other, when the ropes are in contact with each other, can you now conceive how they could rub against each other, and abrade or even melt the sheath of the rope? For your inability to get this into your mind, you earn yourself a pile of pooh, since I can rate today.
|
|
|
|
|
cchildre
Aug 19, 2005, 5:35 PM
Post #34 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671
|
Quick answer, you only need to worry about melting ropes if the contact each other moving at different speeds. If both pass throught the beaner at the same speed during a fall then no problem, different speed then you do. Just don't mix the two techniques during a climb.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Aug 19, 2005, 5:37 PM
Post #35 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
getting your doubble rope teqnique diled takes time but once you are there it is a good system. If you are not dialed it is a gaurenteed clusterfck :shock: single lead rope with smaller diameter tag line for full raps is also a good system but you do need to know the dangers of rapping on diferent diameter ropes. No biggi if you understand how the system works. The smaller rope can feed faster than the larger. Also if lots of sharp edges your rap is only as strong as the skinnyest line used!! With the doubble rope system you can alturnate clips, you can clip both to the same piece. It is not recomended to clip the ropes seperatly and then clip them together again although the reverse is fine. melt through is generaly over stated. you have to really try to get it to happen just running them through the same biner won't gaurentee it (If you are trying to get rid of someone:) you have to zig zag the ropes back and forth and then make suer that they are wrapped arround each other pretty good , then seperate them at a sharp angle. take a big whip to test but this should do it :twisted: You can create the same clusterfck complete with massive rope drag and melthrough potentual when clipping both ropes seperatly by loseing track of which rope is supposed to be on the left and which on the right. Zig zag em back and forth a few times and you should be able to create a nice mess :twisted: If the ropes run relatively straight, arn't wrapped arround each other and you have mixed up your clipping between both and single it really is no big deal.
|
|
|
|
|
aikibujin
Aug 19, 2005, 5:46 PM
Post #36 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 408
|
In reply to: I don't know under what circumstance you would be required to clip both doubles to one piece, but if you had to option 2 is better.
When you're faced with a long runout right off the belay, but you have a bomber anchor, it's probably a good idea to redirect both doubles through the anchor to prevent a ff2 fall.
I agree with option 2, when I clip doubles to the same piece, I like to use two different length of runners for each rope.
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
Aug 19, 2005, 5:55 PM
Post #37 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
Fair enough, my mind was higher up the pitch. As stated before, it's ok to clip doubles together to start, but once you split them up, don't clip them back together again with one biner.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Aug 19, 2005, 5:56 PM
Post #38 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
If the line is straight but the gear is sketch such as soft sandstone, poor rock quality, bad bolts, micro wires or cams then i would alturnate clips to reduce impact force. If the line is straight but the gear is bomber, new bolts, large gear in good quality rock etc. I will clip both ropes as this is smoother and less tangle prone. If i have been clipping both ropes to to fat new bolts but suddenly I come to an old rusty 1/4" buttonhead I will clip a single strand to the buttonhead witha screamer. the rock police will now come rushing out of Cyberspace and tell me that my ropes are going to melt through and i am gonna die immeadatly but they are FULL OF $HIT!! :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
Aug 19, 2005, 5:59 PM
Post #39 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
In reply to: Lets say the route allows for pro on either side of the leader, making double tech easy....then the route moves into a single crack/dihedral. So you no longer have the option of spaced out pro. So at this time is it ok to use the double rope tech...even though the ropes will be running over each other? (i.e...im in a dihedral clip red then climb up clip blue climb up clip red)
Alternating clips would be the way to go.
|
|
|
|
|
chucky
Aug 19, 2005, 6:01 PM
Post #40 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 53
|
So what is the best tech for a dihedral, where your pro will all be placed in a crack at the back of the dihedral?
1) Run your doubles as twins?
2) Or still alternate clips?
|
|
|
|
|
aikibujin
Aug 19, 2005, 6:02 PM
Post #41 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 408
|
In reply to: Lets say the route allows for pro on either side of the leader, making double tech easy....then the route moves into a single crack/dihedral. So you no longer have the option of spaced out pro. So at this time is it ok to use the double rope tech... even though the ropes will be running over each other? (i.e...im in a dihedral clip red then climb up clip blue climb up clip red) or is this when some people clip both ropes to a single piece using different biners?
No, the rope will not be running over each other, even if the route wanders first then converges to a single line. As long as you didn't get your "left" rope and "right" rope crossed, the tension from the pro below the crack or dihedral or whatever will keep the left and right ropes seperated, on either side of the crack/dihedral. It is still ok to clip the doubles alternatively in this case, and I see no advantage to switch to twin technique when the route converges.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Aug 19, 2005, 6:03 PM
Post #42 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
If the line is running straight and you clip them back together there will be no problem. If you have one rope way off to the left and you clip it back in thr the same biner as the rope that is straight then there will be an issue with both rope drag and possible rope melt. Still just running it through the biner probobly won't do th trick You need to get the ropes twisted together then seperate them again creating a sharp angle to get them to really melt through.
|
|
|
|
|
chucky
Aug 19, 2005, 6:10 PM
Post #43 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2003
Posts: 53
|
So my final conclusion is the following: There is no reason to abandon double rope technique just because the section you are on goes straight up. Continue to clip alternating pieces. This has the added advantage of reducing the length of a potential fall while you're clipping the piece above - your next piece is clipped to the other rope, so you're not adding fall distance by pulling up the clipping rope.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Aug 19, 2005, 6:26 PM
Post #44 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
If most of the pitch is straightforward and straight up it can be faster and smoother to treat your doubbles as twins. If it is straight up bolt clipping and hard climbing then definatly clip them both. (90% of belayers don't give as safe a belay when you split the ropes up on this type of terrain . You think that you are lessining the distance of possible fall but in reality they probobly are keeping you looser than they would with a single or if you clip both. If they try and give a sport belay they end up short ropeing you on red when you clip blue, then they get confused as to weather they are feeding red or blue. To do it right if the leader reachs up to clip red the belayer must feed out red and keep blue short to actually lessn that fall. Now as you climb up the belayer must now pull in on red while feeding out blue. Chances are that in reality you will either get short roped on blue or red will be looser than you would like if you are at your limit. The leader can also get confused as what rope they clipped last clipped last makeing communication more difficult. if it is straight up hard climbing on bomber pro keep it simple for both the leader and the belayer. seperate the ropes when it actualy benifits the team.
|
|
|
|
|
aikibujin
Aug 19, 2005, 7:34 PM
Post #45 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 408
|
In reply to: (90% of belayers don't give as safe a belay when you split the ropes up on this type of terrain . You think that you are lessining the distance of possible fall but in reality they probobly are keeping you looser than they would with a single or if you clip both. ... Now as you climb up the belayer must now pull in on red while feeding out blue.
It is true that belaying with doubles are more complex than belaying with single or twins. It does take practice. However, it is not impossible to belay well with doubles. I think many of the issues you mentioned can be solved by a more practiced belayer.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Aug 20, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #46 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
I didn't say that is was impossible. it is just a simple fact that a good efficient team of two will save time and hassel and the ropes will run better if you clip them both on a dead straight pitch provideing that the gear is bomber and the climbing hard. If it is easy climbing then it is not an issue. I am talking long climbs here. i absolutly hate the word NEVER. you have to be flexable. When the climbing dictates that the ropes are split I split them, when it makes sense to keep them together i keep them together. Unlike many posters I have many thousands of hours experience with doubble ropes and i still short rope the leader on occasion. It is dam hard to give as good of a belay with doubbles as you can with a single when your leader is at their limit. Especialy if you can't see them. I will still go with the security of doubble ropes on longer climbs every time. I do occasionaly use doubbles on hard single pitch stuf as well if the gear is sketch. places like the Creek I prefer a single lead line with a tag line. Simpler, faster, less hassel. It sucks trying to get foot jams with two ropes in the freaking crack.
|
|
|
|
|
papounet
Aug 26, 2005, 10:41 AM
Post #47 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471
|
In reply to: I'm trying to imagine catching one second's fall on a skinny twin with the other second's cord not locked off -- YIKES. Dale
Trivial with the right device such as a magic plate or a reverso.
(for super slick thin wet dry-treated rope , you may be better off with a reversino ;-)
Many guides will do it with a munter hitch
|
|
|
|
|
papounet
Aug 26, 2005, 10:47 AM
Post #48 of 48
(4933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471
|
In reply to: And Aikibujin, thanks for being more specific on the traverses..... oh yeah! I guess I just always figured it was the leader's job to run out the first vertical section so that the second is appropriately protected. With doubles used as described, the leader can be better protected and the second is no worse off. Thanks everybody!
Actually, the leader is no worse off and the second is much better off
|
|
|
|
|
|
