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suprdude22
Sep 2, 2005, 4:27 AM
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Does anybody know anything about the financials of a climbing gym? I have heard some are extremely profitable, but others dont seem to make money. I guess, does anybody know what the overhead costs are like on a gym, say 10K sq. ft of climging? How many people come through a gym like that? Or, basicaly anyting else on the figures of a gym. Feel free to get as technical as you want. Thanks for the info.
Mike
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lambone
Sep 2, 2005, 5:18 AM
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To have a 10k wall built proffesionally you are looking at at least $300k-$500K. And that is just for the ewall, add an extra $100-200K just to open the doors.
My guestamite on the operating cost on a facility that size would be at least $15k per month, probably $20k inorder to staff it properly. Rent, Payrool, insurance, CAM, Utilities, Marketing, maitnence, etc, etc...
How much would you bring in totally depends on where your gym is located and how well you market it.
Bottom line, if you want to ope a big gym of 10k+, think about a large population center without much competition.
good luck :) live the dream
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suprdude22
Sep 2, 2005, 6:19 AM
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awesome. Thanks for the info. I have an idea for a place with a HUGE population, that doesnt seem to have a climbing gym. Im not sure why there isnt one there. If other places have them, I dont know why this one doesnt. Got any ideas why a heavily populated area wouldnt have a climbing gym? The thing I was thinking is that the market may not be there, but with a nice climbing gym and good location, I dont think it would be that hard to create a market. Creating a market is usually easier than trying to take pieces of a market away from a competitor.
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kletter1mann
Sep 2, 2005, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: I have an idea for a place with a HUGE population, that doesnt seem to have a climbing gym. Im not sure why there isnt one there. If other places have them, I dont know why this one doesnt. Got any ideas why a heavily populated area wouldnt have a climbing gym? |
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kirkenplop
Sep 2, 2005, 4:13 PM
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Suprdude... Check your PM's... I think I may be able to help you out.
lambone (Matt, right?) You're killing me with these numbers here... we are SO competitive! Can we go back a year or so so I can bid your project? Please? If you ever build more walls or boulders, we should definitely talk.
How's the opening coming?
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cdoiron
Sep 7, 2005, 12:43 AM
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Just wanting to note that even population size doesn't always help. Oklahoma City Proper is about a half a million and our only gym gets a small amount of traffic most days. The gym really inovative using an abondend grain silo in downtown.http:/www.okcrocks.com
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kletter1mann
Sep 7, 2005, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: Just wanting to note that even population size doesn't always help. Oklahoma City Proper is about a half a million and our only gym gets a small amount of traffic most days. The gym really inovative using an abondend grain silo in downtown.
What kind of marketing do they do? How much effort to bring newcomers in and get them hooked?
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suprdude22
Sep 7, 2005, 1:55 PM
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hmmm, that doesn't sound good. The gym I go to now, only has about 50,000 people that might think about going, and it seems to stay a float. Sounds like they could use some serious marketing, assuming getting to downtown isn't too difficult. PM me if the need any ideas.
Lata,
Mike
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jkarns
Sep 7, 2005, 2:18 PM
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the real question is how amny birthday parties can you book.
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asandh
Sep 7, 2005, 2:28 PM
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:)
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lambone
Sep 7, 2005, 3:43 PM
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It is possible to build a climbing gym where local climbers can hand out AND run programing like youth groups and birthday parties. Both are key elements t the gym...
A gym should keep the two groups somewhat seperate by design.
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asandh
Sep 7, 2005, 4:07 PM
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:)
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maculated
Sep 7, 2005, 4:32 PM
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It has nothing to do with blanket assumptions. I'm opening a gym in a town of 40,000. It will be about the size of Matt's but the only reason I would do that is because this town has a huge outdoor-interest. People surf, parasail, hike, ride, climb, kayak . . . and that all translates to interest in climbing. People are also rich here. Rich helps. And lots of young families to join. We have six gyms in town, each has thousands of members.
If you're thinking about starting a gym, you really need to start asking questions of yourself. Not that I am an expert,but that's my experience thus far.
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cracklover
Sep 7, 2005, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: It is possible to build a climbing gym where local climbers can hand out AND run programing like youth groups and birthday parties. Both are key elements t the gym... A gym should keep the two groups somewhat seperate by design.
Yes - Boston is a only a medium-sized city, but we're keeping two gyms afloat, one of which is quite big.
Boston has a long history of climbing and a very active population of dedicated climbers (note the Mass-Climbers thread right here on rc.com). That certainly helps. But I know from talking to the owner of the gym I mostly climb at, (MetroRock - www.metrorock.com) that the B-day parties are what keeps his gym afloat!
What makes the gym so phenomenal is that they seem to be very successful at satisfying both the birthday party crowd and the serious climbers, and without either being in the other's way. I've never once even noticed a B-day party in process, while in other gyms, the little kids can be a nightmare to any more "serious" climbers.
I can't speak to what the gym did to cater to the parties, except that I know they have a dedicated "conference room" style room for the actual cake and whatnot. But I can say what they did to cater to dedicated climbers - imaginative construction, long walls varying from severly overhanging to slabby, lots of leading, great routes, good variety of holds, good variety of ratings, routes changed often, and a big bouldering section.
That, my friends, is a successful gym. I haven't asked him about his finances, but if they're not making money, no-one can.
GO
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mheyman
Sep 7, 2005, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: what's the smallest market (population) you feel could support an average sized climbing gym ?
This is the key question. But, I'm not sure that anyone has a single correct answer. I've been interested in opening a gym for years. Know where I want it. Don't know what the area can/would support.
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cdoiron
Sep 7, 2005, 10:44 PM
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The only thing that I was trying to point out that size of pop. isn't a good measure by itself. Although OKC rocks could do a lot more advertising Their are situated right downtown. If you ever go through Oklahoma City on I-40 you are about 1/4 of a mile a way. It has a huge bilboard thing painted on it. There is a much larger percentage of people who hunt and fish climbing just doesn't have a large intrest quite yet. The gym does have parties etc. that come through but also is also good for local climbers ie. the smallest route is about 39' and the largest indoor is 88'. The gym has limited cost by being inovative. The routes are pretty much bolted into the walls directly, but they are also getting real rock hold routes on the outside. I recommend checking out their website okcrocks.com.
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cracklover
Sep 8, 2005, 3:52 AM
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In reply to: That, my friends, is a successful gym. I haven't asked him about his finances, but if they're not making money, no-one can. GO
I spoke to one of the owners tonight. They've never not made money since they opened their doors (about a year ago).
GO
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lambone
Sep 8, 2005, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: to lambone: assuming you have done your market research thoroughly, what's the smallest market (population) you feel could support an average sized climbing gym ?
The question your asking has a couple of vairiables that need to be nailed down. First, are you talking about one individual town, or all surrounding towns within about a 45 minute radius. Your market is really within that radius.
Second, "average" is pretty vague. Plus, you could build a huge gym out of plywood and 2x4s for pretty cheap. Or you could build a 20'X10' wall made to look like real rock for $50,000 alone. How big is the building, how much is the rent, do you own or lease, what are utility costs, what is the payrooll to adequately staff the facility and maintain customer service and safety? All important questions that factor into the bottom line considerably.
It gets complecated. Basically I don't know. I think a gym could be profitable in ANY town if you built to scale, had good rent, and were good at taping into different markets to develop a clientel. The most important thing is keeping overhead low and hitting your sales goals.
There is a Climbing Gym Market Survey available through the Outdoor Industry Association that gives some data on gyms in different size towns. However when making our B_Plan we didn't find it very usefull, because they didn't say wether those gyms were for profit, or not-for profit. And they didn't break down the sales data by population size. Basically it is some good data with a poor analaysis that doesn't let you draw many usefull conclusions. All it says is that there are many gyms in the country out of ~650 total in small towns of under 100k.
Hope that helps.
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climbinspired
Sep 20, 2005, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: It has nothing to do with blanket assumptions. I'm opening a gym in a town of 40,000. It will be about the size of Matt's but the only reason I would do that is because this town has a huge outdoor-interest. People surf, parasail, hike, ride, climb, kayak . . . and that all translates to interest in climbing. People are also rich here. Rich helps. And lots of young families to join. We have six gyms in town, each has thousands of members. If you're thinking about starting a gym, you really need to start asking questions of yourself. Not that I am an expert,but that's my experience thus far.
You mention that San Luis Obispo (where you're located) has six gyms in town... do you mean six general fitness gyms or six climbing gyms?
The reason I ask is I am researching opening a climbing gym in a large metro area that already has two climbing gyms. One of those gyms has been OVERRUN with screaming children at birthday parties, so no real climbers go there anymore, and the other one is in a horrible, distant location.
My biggest obstacle (at this point) is determining whether the market can support another gym, and location.
Thanks for any advice you may have!
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lambone
Sep 20, 2005, 10:11 PM
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well if the one gym is overrun with screaming children, and you can get a competitive edge with a better location, facility, and pricing...then you can likely steal some of their market.
however if you have visions of a "climber only" gym with no intention of programing to screaming kids, they you are basically dooming yourself to non-profitability and possibly failure.
Understanding the market is probably one of the hardest stages of the business plan (other the rasing capitol). Other fitness gyms in the area are good indicators of the market in the area (which is what maculated is getting at), and they are also your competition of a large segment of your market, which is athletic young adults just looking to get a workout and keep in shape.
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climbinspired
Sep 20, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Excellent point, lambone.
I think there has to be a balance there somewhere, between satisfying the birthday party crowd (your bread and butter, so to speak) and striving climbers, trying to improve (your heart).
That's where I think I can make my niche, here... offering a better location than the "climbers" gym and a better environment than the "overrun with kids" gym.
I think the climbing gym in New York that just "broke ground" has the right idea -- a separate "training" area for the kids, that is separated from the main walls by windows.
Thanks for the advice! I'll keep watching your posts for other great tidbits!
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lambone
Sep 21, 2005, 3:34 AM
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one solution to being able to impress/keep the climbers and have lots of screaming kids having fun is in the gym design. think "coral" to keep the kids somewhat isolated from the members.
the other recent thread about the new gym in new york in this forum is a perfect example.
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csgambill
Sep 21, 2005, 4:42 AM
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In reply to: ...our only gym gets a small amount of traffic most days. The gym really inovative using an abondend grain silo in downtown.http:/www.okcrocks.com[/quote] To be perfectly honest, that's probably part of the reason traffic is so low. They need to find a way to market the place better, or find a new location. I don't have any suggestions, I'm not a marketing or sales guy. I pay people for that sort of thing. :-) Just my $0.02
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kirkenplop
Sep 23, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...our only gym gets a small amount of traffic most days. The gym really inovative using an abondend grain silo in downtown.http:/www.okcrocks.com[/quote] To be perfectly honest, that's probably part of the reason traffic is so low. They need to find a way to market the place better, or find a new location. I don't have any suggestions, I'm not a marketing or sales guy. I pay people for that sort of thing. :-) Just my $0.02[/quote] You hiring? My sales position just got taken over by the president of the company... he got sick of the drudgery of day to day business management. Great for me, eh? :shock:
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