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fryinbacon
Oct 20, 2004, 8:16 PM
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I'm looking into a new sleeping bag for this winter. Have you used down or synthetic sleeping bags? Which do you like for extreme cold conditions?
Thanks-
Bacon
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cammaniac
Oct 20, 2004, 8:25 PM
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Nothing beats down for cold weather. If you are sure it will be below freezing all the time, there is little chance of getting it wet. Also, most good down bags these days have some sort of windproof, water repellant shell.
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climbhoser
Oct 20, 2004, 8:36 PM
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DOWN!!!! Synthetic sucks, and I hate to say is usually a lot colder than what it's rated for...meaning you won't be sleeping. Also, get dryloft, which is Gore's version of watreproof down.
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drrock
Oct 20, 2004, 8:39 PM
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I have a synthetic, and my next purchase will be down. I have been okay with the synthetic bag, but besides the benefits mentioned here about down (above posts), down compresses a lot more than synthetic, which can be important if you are trying to pack for a long trip. What a pathetic run-on sentence.
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jdouble
Oct 20, 2004, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: I'm looking into a new sleeping bag for this winter. Have you used down or synthetic sleeping bags? Which do you like for extreme cold conditions? Thanks- Bacon
I have a Mountain Hardware down bag, and would buy another. Have seen partners freeze in synthetic bags rated the same as mine.
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euroford
Oct 20, 2004, 9:06 PM
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my rule: if its above freezing, always have a synthetic, if its below, always have down.
down is warmer, compresses better, and is lighter. not by a little either, its a significant margin better.
though for warmer weather, synthetic bags can be had light and small enough, and i would never risk having a soaked bag.
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telluryan
Oct 20, 2004, 9:08 PM
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mtn hardware down -20. it is the best. has the quantum expander, great feature. even comfortable in warmer weather. the only way to fly!!
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alwaysforward
Oct 20, 2004, 9:13 PM
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Down weighs less.
Down compacts more.
Down keeps its loft longer.
Down is useless when wet.
For technical, cold weather trips where you don't have time to coddle your tools, choose synthetic. Downs pro's cannot outweigh its cons when it comes down to it.
Crosssection of a few -18degree bags (all Marmot as cross company comparisons of weight:temp rating ratios are bunk)
Synthetic - Marmot Trestle 0degree - 3lb 14 ozs $129
600 Fill down - Marmot Never Summer - 3lb 12 ozs
800 Fill down - Marmot Couloir - 3lb 6 ozs
900 Fill down - Marmot Litium - 2lb 8 ozs $439
The weight difference is, at best, 16oz (1 pound) and the cost difference between these is $300US. For $300 you can buy some new gear that will cut more than a pound off your pack weight while still sleeping warm and dry. It really is a no-brainer, but if you do go down do not get a waterproof/breathable shell - its lack of breathability will have your bag wilting in no time.
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mgr
Oct 21, 2004, 9:12 PM
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I have a synthetic bag and I like it a lot, but I would like to get a down bag. I'm just paranoid about getting it wet.
I've ahd some bad experiences. Like the time I woke up and my tent had an inch of water in it. Fun!!!
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marc
Oct 21, 2004, 9:47 PM
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Down!
I have a new Marmot Helium bag good to -11C with pertex shell. This thing weighs 1.5lbs, compresses to the size of a softball, and feels like entering the womb when you jump in. Sweet...
M
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iamthewallress
Oct 21, 2004, 9:53 PM
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Does anyone have any experience w/ their gortex covered down bag getting seriously wet? How water repelant is it really?
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punk
Oct 21, 2004, 10:35 PM
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Down is nice but if you get it wet you in heap of troubles it will take eternity to dry.
My last experience with WM Apache was on Baker. The temperatures were in the upper 30’s. On the approach, we got wet from our preparation and the snow. Later when we had to sleep in the bivi-sacs with wet cloths, my bag gotten wet from a combination of condensation and wet drying cloths. At 1-am when we got up I was ok but the bag was wet on the outside I thought to myself that is OK it will dry out by the time I am back here. So we started to move toward our objective and due to impassible crevasses, we had to turn back an hour later. We decided to sleep it off until morning. By now, I was wet again from preparation and the wet snow. I entered my sleeping bag again with wet cloths then at 4-am the temperature deepen to the upper 20 and now my bivi-sac was all incased in ice and so, some of the down insulation.
To sum it up it was very miserable 6 hours that changed my perspective on down I am highly considering good light syntetic bag I know moonstone makes pretty light one and integral design makes a hot an comfy one
My next will be syntetic with no doubt
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bbecker
Oct 22, 2004, 1:12 PM
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Go with down. Its lighter, warmer and more compressable. If you think its going to be wet and cold, get one with a water resistant exterior. I think mountain hardwear uses its conduit fabric on the shell of some of its down bags.
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punk
Oct 22, 2004, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: Go with down. Its lighter, warmer and more compressable. If you think its going to be wet and cold, get one with a water resistant exterior. I think mountain hardwear uses its conduit fabric on the shell of some of its down bags.
The one important thing about water-resistant/waterproof exterior fabric incasing down sleeping bag is, as the way that is prevent outside water from wetting the insulation it is also impairs perspiration escape from the body to the outside of the outer shell; it is a double edge sword. Therefore, escaping perspirations will condense on the INSIDE of the bag (think of your GTX or other Waterproof shell you use in winter activities) wetting the insulation slowly, from the the outmost clamps of down toward the inside. Since down is NOT fast drying the condensed vapors will stay there for a while and building up over time. Furthermore, if the temperature will deepen in to freezing levels it will most likely freeze and create an icebox around the user rendering the sleeping bag useless. Experiment in the winter or when below freezing temperatures likely with the above method. You will notice that the bag feels damp and it gets heavier each day furthermore when compressed for packing the water has the chance to reach the dry places making the bag evenly wet. The right time to choose down bag is when the temperature is constantly below freezing, as well as open space (tent, cave), with no precipitations involve (Yes snow is one form of precipitation). Another very important factor is vapor barrier (8-10oz), to prevent the sleeper from getting the bag wet from the inside. Another good time to use down is when doing dry-weather camping with good opportunities to dry the bag (preferably sun light).
A Quality 20 degrees light down sleeping bag in the most breathable fabric (simple uncoated nylon) is ~ 2lb, add more(~4oz) for the souped up water-resistant/waterproof fabrics. Add to it a vapor barrier (8-10oz) and you have a system that is averaging ~3lb.
The ongoing weight for quality syntetic sleeping bags is ~3lb.
I must add that sleeping with vapor barrier is a sticky and clammy experience just think of sleeping in plastic bag.
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drake
Oct 23, 2004, 1:17 AM
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I would not own a Gore Tex covered bag. Dryloft is not a very breathable material either. I wish I could replace it with Petex Quantum on my favorite zero degree down bag.
You will notice the down looking damp even in Pertex & Epic shelled bags after a couple days. You might think the shell does not work well but it is just the fact you can see through these materials compared to thicker and less breathable materials.
My favorite system is still a down bag and a synthetic fill belay parka. If the bag gets wet, you still have the parka to make life a little better.
If I was transporting a down bag through an area where rain or slushy snow are a problem, I would have my compressed down bag in a trash bag to help it stay dry.
Always have a syn bag on a big wall.
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boz84
Oct 23, 2004, 3:12 AM
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I second WM.
Made in the US, low volume, high quality bags.
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spinmanadk
Oct 23, 2004, 3:27 AM
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For winter conditions (below freezing) it is hard to beat a high quality down bag.
The highest quality down (800 fill power) gives you the best loft, insulation and packability, but will also give you the highest price. Some companies are also using from 650 to 725 fill power down, which will be a little more reasonable in price, but is not the greatest option for a truly high performance winter bag.
Down is a little high maintanance though. It really should be hung in a clean dry location while storing at home, or in a worse case scenario at least placed into a large cotton storage sack. Also if you get the bag wet forget about drying it out in the field. A moderate stint in a low temperature/high volume dryer will help dry it out and re-loft it. Make sure that if the dryer stops the bag does not rest against the dryer's air intake...that could cause the shell to melt.
Most synthetics are a pain in the a** for winter bags. They don't pack well at all. Even the new Polarguard Delta is too bulky and heavy for a high performance winter bag. Also the synthetics won't last as long as the down will with proper maintanance (good storage, very occasional washing with Nikwax Downwash)
However there is a synthetic out there that shows real promise. Primaloft One has the same warmth to weight ration as 750+ fill power down. It is pretty compressable. It doesn't need to loft up as high as down to give the same insulation, which makes customers leery of going with a Primaloft Bag. (we are after all creatures of habit) I have a three season Primaloft One bag that weighs 1lb 6oz., and even though I am a cold sleeper it keeps me warm in the Adirondack High Peaks from mid-April to mid-October. It also packs down almost as small as the Mountain Hardware Phantom 45. Keep you eyes peeled though. In the near future I wouldn't be surprised if some companies do some R & D with Primaloft One in a winter bag.
Spinman
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spinmanadk
Oct 23, 2004, 3:34 AM
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P.S.
I concur with some of the other posters. When considering shell material I would stay away from Gore-tex or even Gore-tex XCR. In my experience the Pertex Endurance gives a good balance of water resistance and breathability. If you are out in the winter and you find your tent inundated with water, the condition of your sleeping bag might be the least of your worries. :lol:
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kubi
Oct 28, 2005, 10:02 PM
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I see a lot of people fluffing Western Mountaineering...what makes their bags so great? Just looking at the details, they seem to be on par with Mountain Hardwear's bags...just more expensive.
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ryanb
Oct 28, 2005, 11:45 PM
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I'll second the western mountaneering. I have a 20 degree model with no waterproof shell. They are just really really well made. For example the draft tube has a stiffer fabric on the side against the zipper eliminating snags. And the temp rating is VERY generous, I doubt i will ever need a warmer bag.
I have used the bag for lots of camping in the pacific north west and the cordiellera huaywash (sp? its been a while) in peru. Generally either under the stars or in an integral designs sleeping bag cover (made of event i think?...much lighter then a standard bivy sack but no zippers, mosquito net or poll).
Yes your bag will slowly wilt on long trips. This can be minimized by leaving enough of yourself hanging out of the bag that you don't sweat and by makeing sure your breath has a good way to escape. another good trick is to lay a synthetic garment (your poofy coat or a windshirt...not your rain coat) over the top of the sleeping bag inside the bag cover. It will take the bruit of the condensation.
I have slept through several rain storms like this and have had trouble exactely once car camping at smith rocks a couple of weeks ago. I was sleeping on a crash pad and enough water pooled up on it to soak through the bottom of the bag cover. around 5 in the morning my bum started to feel damn cold.
For trips longer then a couple of days you should definetly bring some kind of shelter.
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arrow
Oct 29, 2005, 12:13 AM
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extreme cold conditions you say? Down hands down! At least a -20 for extreme and then get a bivy to add an extra 10 degrees of warmth as well as a good insulated pad. Prepare for at least 10 degrees under conditions you expect. Manufacturers exaggerate a bit on comfort rating. If you expect it to be -10 have at least a -20 Also a good tent will shave off 10 degrees. Of course that -20 will be worthless the other three seasons so be sure to have a nice fleet of bags in your closet to choose from for the proper outing :)
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kubi
Oct 31, 2005, 2:33 AM
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I was comparing the Western Mountaineering Antelope Super MF with the Mountain Hardwear Phantom 0D. They seem to be approximately the same. The WM bag weighs slighty less, but the MH bag has a big more loft and costs a bit less. Has anyone had any experience with the MH bag? My current bag is the Phantom 32, and I really like it, so I'd tend to stick with the same brand.
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roshampo
Oct 31, 2005, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: Does anyone have any experience w/ their gortex covered down bag getting seriously wet? How water repelant is it really?
So in conclusion, you can still manage a good nights sleep in a rainstorm if you have a bottle of captain, but otherwise stick to keeping it in a tent when the rain comes. Snow is fine with it though unless it's really windy, then you'll feel like the wind is stealing your heat.
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roshampo
Oct 31, 2005, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: Does anyone have any experience w/ their gortex covered down bag getting seriously wet? How water repelant is it really?
So in conclusion, you can still manage a good nights sleep in a rainstorm if you have a bottle of captain, but otherwise stick to keeping it in a tent when the rain comes. Snow is fine with it though unless it's really windy, then you'll feel like the wind is stealing your heat.
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