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caughtinside
Dec 1, 2005, 4:19 AM
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In reply to: What are you...retarted?
:P Oh, but there's more!
In reply to: ...is just plain f--- ingnorant.
Jim, it's obvious you've put great stock into what the AMGA thinks. Well, bully for you. Most climbers I know get along just fine without any help from the AMGA, and there's plenty of guides out there that aren't AMGA certified. But whatever. And based on my experience, teaching people to belay in a gym doesn't mean shit. But whatever! You and Jay have both stated your reasons for the techniques you use.
I myself am going to go with Jay, since it's the method I use. No comment on the AMGA. I don't come in contact with guides very often, so I don't know what they're up to. A number of your other comments in the thread though lead me to believe that you think your job as belayer is to make the catch, and that's it. I think you're wrong, and that you don't understand a few things that make a good (and rare!) belay.
But whatever.
Finally, if yers gunna flame sumwun on the intarweb, yu shud at leest spell 'retarded' and 'ignorant' correctly. 8^)
Oh, and 'retarded' is insulting to the mentally handicapped men and women in our society.
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jimdavis
Dec 1, 2005, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Is she wearing gloves? No! Would she have gotten rope burn holding the rope in that possition...probably. Probably? I don't think so. As soon as you feel tension, you lock off. You're always gripping the rope. In reply to: Oh and about shortening a leaders fall....the people i climb with dont place gear that fails much. Good. They probably also place it in granite, on moderate climbs where it's easy to get good stances and good gear. Not always a realistic possibility. But that doesn't mean you should increase the forces on that gear by giving a static belay or pulling rope out when it isn't necessary. In reply to: I've taken slack out to keep people from hitting a ledge/ the deck before. Good. I'm sure you're right, they probably do appreciate it. In reply to: If you place gear that rips out in these circmstances....maybe you should stick to sport after all. Well, you've got a pretty tight set of circumstances. Circumstances that probably can, in most cases, withstand a static catch. But I'd prefer to limit the peak load on my gear and the rock, without the use of screamers in most cases. Especially since you don't always get to define this perfect set of circumstances when you're actually... climbing? :P Why do I have the feeling that that series of photos is going to be haunting internet climbing safety discussions for years to come? 8^)
Caughtinside, nice to see that someone else can approach this subject with a nice tone. :D
You make a good point though,
In reply to: In reply to: Is she wearing gloves? No! Would she have gotten rope burn holding the rope in that possition...probably. Probably? I don't think so. As soon as you feel tension, you lock off. You're always gripping the rope.
Then you wouldn't be giving a dynamic belay then would you...if you locked off as soon as you felt that load? It's be pretty much the same thing as having been locked off already, wouldn't it?
Your right though, the rock out here is Granite, which holds gear much better. If I were climbing on soft sandstone, I'd certainly have a differnet approach to climbing. I'd use as much passive gear as possible, use fat-cams, half ropes, screamers, atc's instead of grigri's, etc.
I think that climbing on this knowingly difficult to protect terrain and not relying solely on your belayers soft catch to save your ass is irresponsible.
If that leader had done many of these other measures to protect themself I'd consider them more responsible. But if your not going to, then I think you should take responsibility for your own actions.
Why push yourself on lead, on rock that doesn't hold gear well, not take every precaution you can as a leader, then expect your belayer to be the only thing that saves your ass? I don't think this attitude is responsible.
I'd also agree that yes it's a good idea to limit that peak force on the gear. But I think you need to know when to trust it too. I'll be softer in a catch when i see a leader climbing above a black alien then after pacing a #3 camalot...wouldn't you?
I feel that the belay technique being argued provided a greater measure of safety, when the gear is good, and the falls are clean.
Cheers, and thanks for the input.
Jim
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fracture
Dec 1, 2005, 4:21 AM
Post #153 of 353
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In reply to: I work in a gym ...
:lol:
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jimdavis
Dec 1, 2005, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What are you...retarted? :P Oh, but there's more! In reply to: ...is just plain f--- ingnorant. Jim, it's obvious you've put great stock into what the AMGA thinks. Well, bully for you. Most climbers I know get along just fine without any help from the AMGA, and there's plenty of guides out there that aren't AMGA certified. But whatever. And based on my experience, teaching people to belay in a gym doesn't mean s---. But whatever! You and Jay have both stated your reasons for the techniques you use. I myself am going to go with Jay, since it's the method I use. No comment on the AMGA. I don't come in contact with guides very often, so I don't know what they're up to. A number of your other comments in the thread though lead me to believe that you think your job as belayer is to make the catch, and that's it. I think you're wrong, and that you don't understand a few things that make a good (and rare!) belay. But whatever. Finally, if yers gunna flame sumwun on the intarweb, yu shud at leest spell 'retarded' and 'ignorant' correctly. 8^) Oh, and 'retarded' is insulting to the mentally handicapped men and women in our society.
Sorry, got carried away, ran the spell check, then added some more. :oops:
I know a few guides that are and are not AMGA. They each have their reasons for getting the cert or not...but it's kinda hard to argue with the AMGA when it comes to technical stuff. There isn't any other organization that puts more time and and thought into their recomendations.
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Dec 1, 2005, 4:31 AM
Post #155 of 353
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In reply to: In reply to: I work in a gym ... :lol:
The gym is a part of the instructional program i work with....can you think of any other part time job you'd rather have as a climber? Other than being a bartender at a strip joing, maybe :wink:
If that was my sole reasoning for why I'm right, you guys would have every right to flame away... But, it's just part of it.
Cheers,
Jim
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healyje
Dec 1, 2005, 5:23 AM
Post #156 of 353
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Shots of classic action from the first ever Southern Illinois Climber's Reunion (kids, don't try this at home - it's old school...)
Classic '70s TR belay and matching bowline on a bight harness...
For multi-pitch leads we'd add a non-locking biner on the waist loop that also clipped the rope coming from the climber for a directional. We put up lots of hard FA's this way and took/held an endless stream of long lead falls. I'd still trust my partner belaying me with a biner/hip belay while sketching on a hard multi-pitch or taking a 50 footer than I would most gym rats with a grigri...
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...a/500/6299belay1.JPG
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...a/500/6299belay2.JPG
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jred
Dec 1, 2005, 5:48 AM
Post #157 of 353
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I work in a gym ... :lol: I know, i know....It's not to say that this gives me the be all and end all wisdom in climbing. However it does expose me quite a bit to beginning climbers, and I've taught a lot of people to belay because of it. Can you think of any other place where you'd have the chance to teach so much about climbing? Besides guiding full time. The gym is a part of the instructional program i work with....can you think of any other part time job you'd rather have as a climber? Other than being a bartender at a strip joing, maybe :wink: If that was my sole reasoning for why I'm right, you guys would have every right to flame away... But, it's just part of it. Cheers, Jim |
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2005, 8:23 AM
Post #158 of 353
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You are the climber, you got some common sense, and you decide what works for you
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ein_berliner
Dec 1, 2005, 9:48 AM
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Rock and Ice has become an incredibly crappy magazine. It reads like it is written by 16 year olds white, hippie/gangster wanna-be's. Climbing magazine is the one of the two that has retained quality articles.
As far as that belay. I wouldn't say it is "wrong" because there isn't anything unsafe about it persay. I use a similar technique, only I don't reach farther out on the loose end of the rope to slide the other hand back up. Just pull the loose end down and place your free hand between it and the belay device to lock off. Now replace right hand back in normal spot and voila. Same end state as the article, only you aren't locking the rope with your hands pretzelled by your side (as per the pic)
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drunkenmonkey
Dec 1, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #160 of 353
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It looks like the originating post went all the way and lots have been discussed.
I'm not sure if this point has been made but i would imagine it has.
In the UK this is the way everyone gets taught and the way most people belay. Instructors are taught to teach this method. As you guys/gals have pointed out the general feeling is it's safer the the usual American style of belaying as the rope is always locked off. There's no problem feeding slack in any amount or taking it in.
The key point is as I read we all have a decision to make and as long as we're happy with that your consenting adults. The only point I would make is that learing new techniques is incredibly valuable. The more you can know about climbing and its techniques the better a climber you'll be.
take it easy
p
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ein_berliner
Dec 1, 2005, 11:58 AM
Post #161 of 353
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The technique is better than the one where you readjust hands while the ropes are parallel for sure! That technique sucks! But there is an easier way to perform the method demonstrated in the photos....
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 1, 2005, 2:05 PM
Post #162 of 353
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I work in a gym ... :lol: I know, i know....It's not to say that this gives me the be all and end all wisdom in climbing. However it does expose me quite a bit to beginning climbers, and I've taught a lot of people to belay because of it. Can you think of any other place where you'd have the chance to teach so much about climbing? Besides guiding full time. The gym is a part of the instructional program i work with....can you think of any other part time job you'd rather have as a climber? Other than being a bartender at a strip joing, maybe :wink: If that was my sole reasoning for why I'm right, you guys would have every right to flame away... But, it's just part of it. Cheers, Jim Whoa! hold up boyos. Firstly working in a gym does not disqualify you as a person who knows a thing or two about climbing. Secondly, as the original poster I just want to clarify, it is not the fact that the brake hand is down that is wrong in R and I article. What I have a problem with is the convoluted, contorted motion of the belayers hands, the upsidedown belay device, the flipping palms up, palms down with no explanation, hands braking to the side, etc. Jay, I have been belaying for over fifteen years now using the non-pinch and slide method (not as descibed in R and I), I have belayed anywhere from 5.6-5.14c/d sport and trad. I have caught literally thousands of falls dynamically without injury or incedent. This is a viable belaying technique(not as described in R and I), perhaps you have not seen anyone do it correctly? Jim is correct in saying that the pinch and slide is intended to be used with a munter hitch, as I also stated earlier. That said, I would rather, if you were to belay me using the method you are familier with, even if it was not the method I chose to use.
Finally, someone making sense. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that EVERYONE is wrong. If you only know and use one belaying technique, I don't think you will be an effective belayer. WHEN belaying a leader I will often go between techniques depending on the situation. I don't like the pinch method for taking in slack because it brings your brake hand all the way up, leaving less margin for error. BUT, it is faster, so often I will use it. When I have time I will bring my left hand down and slide the brake hand up. When feeding out slack my palm goes up, because I can feed out slack faster. The R & I article is wrong becaused as Jay pointed out, in a lot of situations, it is not safer, because it is cumbersome and not as fast. Your brake hand is best served, somewhere halfway between fully in brake position and "pinch" position. This allows for the most flexibility.
Josh
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cintune
Dec 1, 2005, 2:36 PM
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I think the pinch & slide faction has to prove that the quasi-lock-off method is x% more liable to catastrophic failure under specific TR, sport, or lead scenarios. That's the only thing that counts at the end of the day. Any other arguments boil down to matters of opinion and personal preferences.
I also find it hard to believe that the only reason the AMGA endorses something is because it's "easier to teach." Checked out their website and couldn't find anything specific, but at least it didn't say "Take our courses, they're so fucking easy you'll be guiding in no time!"
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everythingelse
Dec 1, 2005, 2:47 PM
Post #164 of 353
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ok
so the brits got it right
i'm goin with them
pwigg
:lol:
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: I think the pinch & slide faction has to prove that the quasi-lock-off method is x% more liable to catastrophic failure under specific TR, sport, or lead scenarios.
Nope, not if you want to belay me. If you use anything other than the pinch-and-slide method you have to, at a bare minimum, prove that you can avoid short-roping me without leaving excessive slack in the rope. Of the perhaps 20 people who I have climbed with who insisted on using a locked-off belay method, 19 agreed to learn the pinch and slide method after belaying me on a single pitch, since they could not consistently pay out slack fast enough for me to clip. The one climber who was able to get slack out fast enough remains the one and only climber who I will allow to belay me using a locked-off belay method.
So, jred et al, maybe a few of you can get the rope out fast enough, but that's just that's the minimum requirement, and you're probably not cute enough for me to waive the other requirements: I still claim that for all intents and puropses you cannot give a dynamic belay if you start with the rope locked off, nor can you pull out slack fast enough in the event of close-to-the-ground fall if you start with the rope locked off.
Jay
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Like you guys said she had a grigri...but if that were a tube device he'd have fallen furthor there. Which would have been safer, you ignorant n00b! The postition she has her arms in is exactly the position that I have been recommending. Had she been using an ATC in that manner she could have allowed some rope to pass through the belay device, reducing the impact force on the top piece, perhaps enough to keep it from pulling. or pehaps enough to make the guy hit the deck a lot harder. were you there? do you know how much force that cam would have taken?
The belayer does not have a crystal ball; he has to go with the averages. The belayer would not have known exactly how much force the cam would have held, but an experienced climber would know that a cam in a parallel-sided soft sandstone crack can track out under moderated loads, and thus would provide a dynamic belay to reduce the impact force. More often than not, the dynamic belay will help, and that's all the belayer can do.
In reply to: Is she wearing gloves? No! Would she have gotten rope burn holding the rope in that possition...probably.
That's an argument for wearing gloves, not for failing to provide a dynamic belay.
In reply to: If you place gear that rips out in these circmstances....maybe you should stick to sport after all.
As you are apparently unaware (given your 3 years of gym climbing), soft sandstone is finicky, and the belayer needs to dynamically belay to help keep the leader safe. Since, as usual, you refuse to acknowledge that the belayer should endeavor to minimize the risk of the team, perhaps you should stick to gym climbing after all.
Jay
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healyje
Dec 1, 2005, 4:27 PM
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Coming out of the ass-and-hand school of belaying I'm with Jay and Co. on this one. Seeing someone methodically, meticulously, and laboriously belaying the way presented - well, I guess I'd have some serious reservations about letting them belay me. I'd also have doubts about their ability to do it reliably without unduly focusing on the rope handling.
As for the AMGA, anyone setting up themselves up to propose or promote "standards" of any kind that have a "safety" component are going to be inclined to hedge on the conservative "side of life".
All in all, it's just too damned "tight ass", static, and absolute for my taste and probably is a good sign money and/or a lack of faith is or has been recently involved. That said, anything that keeps suburbanites passing through our world from raining down on one another is a good thing.
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: How about attentiveness, reflexes, and attunement to circumstances are more important than specific techniques, none of which is absolutely fail safe. That'd let everyone off the hook. Because it is not the point to let anyone off the hook. The point -- my point, anyway -- is to educate newbies on the limitations of these avante-garde locked-off belay techniques. They are being taught because they are easier to teach, not because they are safer. New climbers should take the time needed to master the pinch-and-slide belay technique; it is superior for the reasons I've posted over and over again this thread. Jay Outdated. You know why that technique was invented....the munter hitch...
Where do you get this idea from? I was tought the pinch and slide method at the Yosemite Climbing School in 1985 for use with the hip belay. The following year I was taught the pinch and slide method using a Stich plate.
In reply to: Jay, you don't have s--- on the AMGA...period. Your not gonna convince me that the only certification granting climbing institution in the United States had a pannel of the most tallented and experienced guides, sit down and come up with an inferior belay technique, that's inferior to an older well known technique.
I know I won't convince you because you have neither the experience nor the intelligence to do anything other than rely on appeals to authority. If you could think for yourself, you'd have a chance.
Jay
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healyje
Dec 1, 2005, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: ...only certification granting climbing institution in the United States...
Missed that one! Hey, that "institution" is more a cult or coven at the moment and hasn't been around very long at all. None of the folks in it have a particularly proprietary lock on experience or knowledge. Many of us have been at this for decades and while I respect many of those folks let's not get carried away with the rampant diefication. I come from a family of commercial pilots and trust me - every one involved with insuring you get from point a to point b in that business still puts their pants on one leg at a time...
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: . In reply to: also i don't think it is much easier to learn then the pinch n slide Obviously wrong. You really are clueless. Jay Jay, here's where you really stand out as a complete fool. 1) I've taught beginners how to belay, for over 3 years now, nearly every week. I work in a gym that saw over 5000 visits this past year alone. I teach outdoor instructional course a few times each season. You are flat out wrong. I've taught people both methods...wanna know which one they think is easier damn near every time?
Yes. Which one? Enlighten me.
[rest of rant clipped]
Jay
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 4:45 PM
Post #171 of 353
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In reply to: If I were climbing on soft sandstone, I'd certainly have a differnet approach to climbing. I'd use as much passive gear as possible...
Hilarious.
Jay
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everythingelse
Dec 1, 2005, 5:04 PM
Post #172 of 353
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he's got a point with the munter hitch
FOTH sixth edition page 138-140
pwigg
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dirtineye
Dec 1, 2005, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If I were climbing on soft sandstone, I'd certainly have a differnet approach to climbing. I'd use as much passive gear as possible... Hilarious. Jay
I have as little experience with soft ( and how soft is that?) sandstone as I can manage, but one item returns from memory that is worth sharing.
I was with some friends wo were not trad climbers, at a small semi-climbing area, and the rock looked pretty soft to me. This area had a few bolted (with home made hangers) routes and tended to be toproped. I asked my friends if they had ever had any trouble with the rock breaking and they said no. So I placed a tricam in what should have been a solid placement and proceeded to pull it though the rock by hand. Not even body weight was needed to track a mid sized tri-cam right through the very soft rock.
Climbing and protecting soft rock is difficult. Holds can explode into powder if you grab them the wrong way, and passive pro, especially small pro, is just about worthless. F/A = P.
I'm sure the rock I am talking about is at the extreme end of soft, but the general ideas still apply to any rock that is not nice and solid.
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jt512
Dec 1, 2005, 5:21 PM
Post #174 of 353
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In reply to: he's got a point with the munter hitch FOTH sixth edition page 138-140 pwigg
No one has a point about the munter hitch. We're not talking about munter hitches. We're talking about ATCs, and the like.
Jay
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healyje
Dec 1, 2005, 5:29 PM
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Jim,
Positions on the issue aside, now that I look at your profile I'd have to say you are posting a lot of strong statements that simply aren't backed up by a depth of your own experience (though I have no doubt you probably competent enough). And you certainly have a right to cite the statements, pronouncements, and recommendations of folks like Mark, the AMGA founders, or the org's technical committees, but past that you simply need a lot more yardage under your belt before you can stand as a proxy for those folks and expect to be taken seriously beyond a certain point.
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