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zxcv
Feb 3, 2006, 7:29 PM
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I’ve been lurking here for awhile, but this is my first post- be gentle.
My partner and I started leading easy trad (up to 5.6) last fall at the Gunks and in the Delaware Water Gap (where we live). We have been using a Beal Flyer II that I got new for $55, and we would like another rope for three reasons: double rope raps, durability and elongation. The first is self explanatory.
By durability I mean cut resistance as there are a lot of sharp edges and loose rock in the Gap (evidently someone’s rope was cut a few years ago by falling rock). Working elongation (I mean how much the rope stretches in a fall) is a big concern because the Beal seems to stretch, and stretch… I could bungee jump with it. Though I know that the amount of stretch and impact forces are not directly related (ok, that’s what I have read) I also realize that the Beal will likely decrease forces on the top piece in a fall. However, given that we are on easy routes with ledges and pointy rocks sticking out- if the rope stretches too much, we hit something hard. Granted, we don’t expect to fall, but if that was a guarantee we would be free soloing… so, I am looking for a cut-resistant rope that will not elongate to the point of slamming us into ledges, etc…
My question is: is the best indicator of cut resistance diameter? I am looking at 10.5 ropes (no doubles- we are too new for that). Is there anything to claims like: ‘Certified ''sharp edge'' construction reduces damage caused by a rope under load suspended over an edge’ (Edelweiss Sharp rope), or ‘Additional Perdur™ sheath fiber coating helps increase abrasion resistance up to 33%’ (Edelweiss Axis). This stuff just sounds like marketing crap to me, but I really don’t know…
Also, I am looking for low working elongation. For instance, the Maxim Bi-Pattern 10.5 has an impact force of 9.43kn and a working elongation of 4.8 percent. My Beal has an impact force of 7.4 kn and a working elongation of 10 percent. So, the Maxim should put more force on the top piece in a fall, but only stretch half as much- right?
In any case, I am looking at the Sterling Marathon Ultra (it comes in 70m lengths!) and the Maxim Bi-Pattern. Any advice or corrections in my assumptions would be appreciated.
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davidji
Feb 3, 2006, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: Is there anything to claims like: ‘Certified ''sharp edge'' construction reduces damage caused by a rope under load suspended over an edge’ (Edelweiss Sharp rope), or ‘Additional Perdur™ sheath fiber coating helps increase abrasion resistance up to 33%’ (Edelweiss Axis). This stuff just sounds like marketing crap to me, but I really don’t know…
I expect there is some increased resistance to severing over an edge from those ropes, but if you really want to solve your edge-protection worries, and double-rope rap worries, you might go to twins. Myself, I often use half-ropes, better than twins in some ways, but not nearly as good w.r.t. sharp edges in a fall (unlike with twins, with half-ropes you may be counting on one of them to protect you from injury). Better w.r.t. sharp edges on rappel, since the ones I use are thicker than twins.
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dvd
Feb 3, 2006, 7:41 PM
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Registered: Sep 18, 2005
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youve got the stretch impact stuff down right.
last i had read, sharp edge cetifications had been removed, but previously labeled ropes could keep the label, that was last year when i bought my rope, so it could have changed since then, can someone else fill in here?
best protection for your rope is paying attention to where you are running it, if you have to run it over a sharp edge, pad the edge. and inspect your rope regularly.
~D
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yokese
Feb 3, 2006, 7:57 PM
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Actually, if you're climbing in an area in which sharp edges and rope cuts may be a major concern, I'd strongly suggest to forget about single ropes and use edgeproof half-ropes. Half-ropes provide extra safety: it's way more improbable that both ropes get cut.
Regarding to the impact force/elongation, I'd prefer the lowest impact force despite the longer elongation, specially if the protections are not sound. I'd say that, in most cases, the aprox. 5% of difference in elongation is not gonna make any difference in a 10-20 feet fall, which, by the way, may be already very nasty in a ledgy 5.6. However, the lower impact force may save you from keep on falling. If the fall is even larger, don't worry about the elongation, you'll hit plenty of ledges in your bouncy fall... :shock:
Last, if you're not already doing so, use a helmet.... if loose rocks can cut a rope, imagine what they can do to your head.
edited to correct "double ropes" for "half-ropes"... funny, "half-ropes" are actually called "doubles" in Spain, because you use the "in double".
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zxcv
Feb 7, 2006, 3:52 AM
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Thanks everyone for the replies...
I have decided to go with twin ropes to solve the rap issue and the edge cutting concern. As far as impact forces and elongation- there is definitely a catch 22 with not wanting to have a rope stretch enough to have me "deck" onto a ledge, and yet elongate enough to reduce impact forces on my top piece and ensure that it holds (otherwise, I may deck on the ground). I have decided to go with low stretch, and use a hell of a lot of screamers... just make them mandatory on all crux pieces and such until (if ever) I climb harder routes that have safer falls. So, twins and screamers seems like the best solution- if anyone sees anything wrong with that please let me know. Oh, and helmets are aboslutely mandatory at the Gap... so no worries there.
Thanks again.
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boss
Feb 7, 2006, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: Thanks everyone for the replies... I have decided to go with twin ropes to solve the rap issue and the edge cutting concern. As far as impact forces and elongation- there is definitely a catch 22 with not wanting to have a rope stretch enough to have me "deck" onto a ledge, and yet elongate enough to reduce impact forces on my top piece and ensure that it holds (otherwise, I may deck on the ground). I have decided to go with low stretch, and use a hell of a lot of screamers... just make them mandatory on all crux pieces and such until (if ever) I climb harder routes that have safer falls. So, twins and screamers seems like the best solution- if anyone sees anything wrong with that please let me know. Oh, and helmets are aboslutely mandatory at the Gap... so no worries there. Thanks again.
Just a quick note, you want double (aka half) ropes. Not twin ropes. Twin ropes get clipped together through every piece and are often used in ice climbing. Doubles get clipped to alternate pieces.
Boss
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slcliffdiver
Feb 7, 2006, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: Thanks everyone for the replies... I have decided to go with twin ropes to solve the rap issue and the edge cutting concern. snip if anyone sees anything wrong with that please let me know. Oh, and helmets are aboslutely mandatory at the Gap... so no worries there. Thanks again.
Consider looking into doubles that are dual certifide twin/half rope. It'll give you opertunity to practice double rope technique where you are comfortable while still allowing you to use twin technique until you are comfortble with double rope technique. It sounds like half rope technique may be be useful in the immedeate future. Proper double rope technique periodically can be the ultimate edge protection. You can have one rope directed so it avoids loading at an angle over the worst edge which can be hard to do with a single or twin rope technique if you want to protect a move before and after the edge. Also on average I'm guessing the'll last you a bit longer (a bit thicker than most twins only) and bit more comforting if the raps cross sharp rock a bit. The trade off is in weight and if you'll only ever use the them as twins and you don't expect to put a good bit of wear on them then maybe the lighter twins are for you.
Happy and safe climbing whatever you do.
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nedsurf
Feb 7, 2006, 5:04 AM
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You might have seen a lot of people using the double rope thing at the gunks. It is quite a popular setup there. I like using it there and many other places. It answers many of your concerns about tradding. I also put my IMHO for doubles for you.
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zxcv
Feb 10, 2006, 5:03 AM
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I really like the idea of a dual certified twin/half rope. We will most likely use them as twins as we are new to trad and often can't hear each other after climbing up 50 feet at the local area, but half rope technique is appeal ling as well.
After doing a search, I have only found the Beal Joker and PMI Verglass rated for both uses. I am leaning towards the Joker- when used as twins its impact force is still rather low at 9.5, and it is thicker than the Verglass. Also, it has about %10 less dynamic stretch than my Flyer II. It seems perfect- I can do long raps, have redundancy, acceptable impact forces...
I can't find any other dual certified ropes (though I know I can likely use thin half ropes as twins, I'd like the specs for that use), so if anyone knows of any more please let me know. Thanks for all the help.
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davidji
Feb 10, 2006, 6:05 AM
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In reply to: After doing a search, I have only found the Beal Joker and PMI Verglass rated for both uses. I am leaning towards the Joker-
OTOH, if you don't mind the weight (I think I would), and don't mind climbing on thick halfs or twins (again, I think I would), and don't mind a very thin single (that part appeals to me), it's a great choice. For the price of two ropes, you've got a lot of versatility.
The thinner the rope the sketchier the rap. I've had halfs in the 8.4 to 8.6mm range and like that. With the right rappel setup, I suppose thinner would be OK too...
In reply to: if anyone knows of any more please let me know. Thanks for all the help.
I'm pretty sure the Beal Ice Line is dual-certified too.
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tisar
Feb 10, 2006, 8:37 AM
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In reply to: last i had read, sharp edge cetifications had been removed, but previously labeled ropes could keep the label, that was last year when i bought my rope, so it could have changed since then, can someone else fill in here?
You're right. The UIAA stopped certification since the test results weren't reproducable in other laboratories. Ropes that passed the test at the UIAA laboratory failed in others and vice versa.
In addition the relevance of the test itself is very questionable. The test simulated fully orthogonal falls over a sharp (metal) edge. In practice this is very unlikely, since falls almost always include a certain amout of pendulum movement, causing the rope to shear over the edge. Plus rock often is not sharp only but provides features which create an additional sawing effect.
So I think the difference between a certified rope and a non certified would be marginal at best. More a marketing gag than a true safety feature, I think.
- Daniel
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antiqued
Feb 11, 2006, 12:59 AM
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In reply to: I really like the idea of a dual certified twin/half rope. We will most likely use them as twins as we are new to trad and often can't hear each other after climbing up 50 feet at the local area, but half rope technique is appeal ling as well. After doing a search, I have only found the Beal Joker and PMI Verglass rated for both uses. I am leaning towards the Joker- when used as twins its impact force is still rather low at 9.5, and it is thicker than the Verglass. Also, it has about %10 less dynamic stretch than my Flyer II. It seems perfect- I can do long raps, have redundancy, acceptable impact forces... I can't find any other dual certified ropes (though I know I can likely use thin half ropes as twins, I'd like the specs for that use), so if anyone knows of any more please let me know. Thanks for all the help.
The PMI Fusion (8.6mm) is also half/twin rated. You should consider the ratings a bit more like guidelines, rather than absolutes. Single ropes are governed by maximum impact to the body - based on some study of 'average' bodies. If you are light, you may not withstand as much, but you will generate less. Twin ropes are limited by force to the protection as well - if you are lighter than 80kg, then many half ropes could meet the twin UIAA criteria using your weight, instead of 80kg.
Half ropes are tested with 55kg - anyone have a good explanation? The cynical me says that means one is likely to fail if I take a good whipper on it. But I climb on them anyway - they are made similarly to the others, and will both hold a lot of falls and be easily stressed beyond their capacity (see edge cutting, above). Unfortunately, there is no public data on them as twins - if they passed, then I assume that the manufacturers would make us aware of it.
Twin Jokers is a lot of rope to haul about these days - if there's a lot of you to haul around, that might be the best choice. As twins the PMI Fusion are rated for the same impact force as the twin Jokers and 6% less stretch .
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healyje
Feb 11, 2006, 1:42 AM
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Whew, in a quick glance a the home page I thought this said:
Re: Curt resistant / low strength lead rope?
Gotta get some sleep...
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delcross
Feb 11, 2006, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: Working elongation (I mean how much the rope stretches in a fall)
Working elongation refers to how much the rope stretches under bodyweight, typically 5-10%. In a fall, your rope will stretch more than this. In a UIAA drop test it's more like 25-40%.
In reply to: Though I know that the amount of stretch and impact forces are not directly related
No, they are related. This is a tradeoff you have to consider when selecting a rope: lower impact force versus less stretch. The correlation between max impact force and working (aka static, aka bodyweight) elongation is fuzzier.
In reply to: My question is: is the best indicator of cut resistance diameter?
For a single rope, it's probably the most important factor; but all ropes are not created equally.
In reply to: I thought this said: Re: Curt resistant
You're spending way too much time online!
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