|
|
|
|
getsomeethics
Feb 28, 2006, 9:59 PM
Post #51 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2002
Posts: 313
|
In reply to: I'm talking about straight up, no excuse, rock vandalism. The roof under Incredible Hand Crack now has chalk art handprints. You'll only be able to smudge them with a brush, they need hosed off. The rock next to Coyne Crack say "(I forgot the name) sucks" then sucks is crossed out and "kicks ass" is written under it. At the first belay of Primrose Dihedral, someone scratched YETI on the rock. At the same belay someone wrote 2 other names in chalk.
hand prints, so and so sucks and a list of names is people wanting to say "i was here" via vandalism.
cairn after cairn on a straight forward, very obvious trail, WHILE NOT UNSIGHTLEY OR DESTRUCTIVE IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, still illustrates some peoples deisre to let others know they made the trek, hike, climb, walk, swim etc etc.
That is all I was trying to illustrate with the cairn example. Some folks really like to let others know they passed by, and sometimes it is destructive, like scratching their name and other times it is totally harmless ie cairns.
I don't hate cairns. I don't topple them over.
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Feb 28, 2006, 10:09 PM
Post #52 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
hmm, this is interesting, I never knew cairns were made specifically to mark a trail. I wonder how many others are just as oblivious. :lol: I've seen them marking trails, yes, but then I've also seen people just stacking rocks for the heck of it, and I've come across cairns in places where there are no trails.
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Feb 28, 2006, 11:05 PM
Post #53 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
I've praised cairns and rejoiced in finding them. I've thrashed cluelessly uphill before finding the trail and then built a petite cairn to save others the trouble. I've also kicked over shin-high cairns that have appeared every 10 feet on well groomed trails to well-known crags. I've also turned up my nose at the neon surveying tape that people tie all over trees in place of cairns.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
|
|
|
|
|
tisakson
Feb 28, 2006, 11:50 PM
Post #54 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2005
Posts: 75
|
Oh boy, do I agree. Putting tick marks on a huge jug that has chalk already on it? Be reasonable. Also, what's all the promo and articles I read about getting people into climbing? Why promote climbing to a young generation of people that you don't even know? I can see getting your kids into it, but to try to make climbing "cool" by all these boulder and "urban" magazines will only attract punk city kids who don't know how to respect nature. AND, why would we want our crags even more crowded? Let's keep climbing a secret to people who can respect the rock and do it for the love of climbing and not to say, "yea, i climb" while their hip-hop is pumping and their pants are sagging. Anyway. later.
|
|
|
|
|
rockreligion
Mar 1, 2006, 12:04 AM
Post #55 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 2
|
the peeps who engage in these sort of nasty deeds are by no means climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
hugin
Mar 3, 2006, 5:29 PM
Post #56 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2006
Posts: 240
|
In reply to: Get real, how is this any different than what the Indians did? Scratching your name into the wall is just modern day petroglyphs. Take off the petro advance time a thousand years or so and you have a glyph. What the hell do you think Newspaper rock was? It's just old-fashioned graffiti! http://img.tfd.com/...1/Newspaper_rock.jpg If you don't like looking at someone's name while you're climbing, maybe you should just draw a picture of a bear or an antelope that covers the name. Then you can pretend your antelope was scratched into the rock 1000 years ago. Problem solved! Revel in my genius!
Just because civilizations of the past had a particular culture, doesn't mean we can't be more enlightened. Give a little credit to the advancement of the human species.
If you want to leave your mark on the world, write a book, paint a painting, teach a child. There is no need to degrade the natural beauty of this world as an artistic or expressive outlet in the modern world.
When I was first taught climbing at the age of 12 in Boulder, the first thing my teachers did, sitting at the base of the trail to the Amphitheatre, was give us a lecture on "Nature" climbers (those to climb as worship on the altar of the natural world) vs those *evil* "Sport" climbers (those to climb to conquer, with no regard for that which they conquer). After a long hiatus, I'm coming back to the sport, in a different part of the country, and finding that the culture is somewhat more complex than it was 14 years ago, but with a scientific and technical education that allows me to better understand my equipment, my environment, and the importance of worship on the altar of your body and your world.
The things I love about climbing are the problem solving, getting to know and understand your body, and a relationship with your environment. All the behaviors called out in this thread are anathema to those goals, and I have to wonder what those people expect to get out of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
climbrc
Mar 3, 2006, 5:53 PM
Post #57 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2002
Posts: 58
|
"It's just old-fashioned graffiti! "
Yeah, I suppose they should have just used paper and pen to detail their legacy. Or perhaps that's why the civilization died, someone got really mad at all the "graffiti".
:wink:
|
|
|
|
|
weschrist
Mar 3, 2006, 6:00 PM
Post #58 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 579
|
In reply to: the peeps who engage in these sort of nasty deeds are by no means climbers.
if they climb they are, by definition, climbers. if they engage in "nasty deeds" they are typical climbers. if they engage in destructive deeds they are uneducated climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Mar 3, 2006, 7:03 PM
Post #59 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
In reply to: In reply to: but we shouldn't ignore the problem in our own midst, that some of those most deserving of the name climber are also our problems. I totally concur. It was experienced climbers who started the precedent of etching or painting route names first on plaques and ultimately on the cliff faces. Others come along and monkey see, monkey do. A huge stain of shame on anyone who has ever done this, right back to the forefathers. DMT
Dingus, usually I find your posts entertaining, enlightening and sometimes educational. However, in this regard, at least specific to plaques in IC, I disagree with the shame ball thrown. Plaques came about from one of the most prolific IC climbers of all time in the early 80’s. This climber was not amused when a climb (Battle of the Bulge) that had been done in a long pitch was reported as a new route in Climbing Magazine and renamed One Trick Pony, complete with two protection bolts and a belay station mid pitch and upgraded. You see this guy’s idea was to climb the route as far as possible and his anchors were not clearly visible from below the route.
This prolific climber began leaving plaques, a small piece of sandstone talus to mark routes where the anchors may not be visible from below. They were usually left at the bottom of the route. The only thing on the plaque was a route name and grade. An example of a plaque I saw in the early 80’s was “WHITE SALAMANDER 5.12-“. The initial intent of the plaque was to prevent another One Trick Pony. The plaque then became more common back in those days as the only way to decipher route names and grades. I don’t ever remember seeing a plaque with the FA name, it was simply the name of the route and the grade. I also did not ever see names engraved in the rock.
I am not trying to justify the formation of plaques or voice my approval despite personally leaving some in some previously remote places down there. At the time, many friends of mine left plaques in what at that time seemed like obscure places. Personally, I got kind of excited about the mystique of hiking up to another wall in Indian Creek to see that someone had gone before and climbed the hardest, best looking lines. Obviously, IC was a different place in the 80’s than it is today and what was the playground for a very few individuals now sees 1000’s. However, The plaques in IC should not be confused with carving on the main cliff. Those who were unhappy about the plaques could simply send it trundling down the slope to burst in a hundred pieces and you got your problem taken care of.
Plaques are far different than the vandalism of carving on the main rock face or leaving huge tick marks. I can relate to angry’s anger.
edited becuase of an imprvement in my reader comprehension....
|
|
|
|
|
kyote321
Mar 3, 2006, 7:24 PM
Post #60 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 636
|
'Plaques are far different than the vandalism of carving on the main rock face or leaving huge tick marks.'
uh, why?
climbers should be more concerned about the war bankrupt bush admin. selling off national land, in which are many climbing areas, to private interests.
some people do do a crap job of ticing things. there needs to be an aritlce on the subject in 'climbing,'' but i sure that is far tooo controversial of a topic for them to cover. they'll have another aritlce on jimmy joe bob's expedition to god knows where to freeze his/her ass off and jug up a route.
|
|
|
|
|
kyote321
Mar 3, 2006, 7:27 PM
Post #61 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 636
|
'Plaques are far different than the vandalism of carving on the main rock face or leaving huge tick marks.'
uh, why?
climbers should be more concerned about the war bankrupt bush admin. selling off national land, in which are many climbing areas, to private interests.
some people do do a crap job of ticing things. there needs to be an aritlce on the subject in 'climbing,'' but i sure that is far tooo controversial of a topic for them to cover. they'll have another aritlce on jimmy joe bob's expedition to god knows where to freeze his/her ass off and jug up a route.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Mar 3, 2006, 7:41 PM
Post #62 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
Just my opinion. I also do not advocate plaques in this day and age. Plus
"Those who were unhappy about the plaques could simply send it trundling down the slope to burst in a hundred pieces and you got your problem taken care of. "
|
|
|
|
|
kyote321
Mar 3, 2006, 8:03 PM
Post #63 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 636
|
a square hole in the rock is almost as asthetic as a chopped bolt hole.
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Mar 3, 2006, 9:54 PM
Post #64 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
Vandalism is vandalism, whether it is a bunch of climbers marking their territory or a government selling of public land to who knows what scoundrels.
And though I think the Aussie's have quality opinions on our public land issues- I think we can let them worry about their own vandalism issues, and what their definition is without criticizing them for their individualized priorities.
|
|
|
|
|
elvislegs
Mar 3, 2006, 10:59 PM
Post #65 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
|
In reply to: Vandalism is vandalism, whether it is a bunch of climbers marking their territory or a government selling of public land to who knows what scoundrels. And though I think the Aussie's have quality opinions on our public land issues- I think we can let them worry about their own vandalism issues, and what their definition is without criticizing them for their individualized priorities.
the aussies?
what the hell are you talking about?
|
|
|
|
|
gunksgoer
Mar 3, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #66 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 1290
|
Its chalk, not spraypaint. Its not the end of the world. Yes we should try and keep them to a minimum, but at least theyre not permanent.
I havent read thru the entire thread, but I doubt that i am the first to mention Gill's arrows. I dont want to put you on the spot John if your reading this, and I dont think anyone dislikes the arrows. In fact, they're the most tastefull thing ive seen written with chalk anywhere. No one is going to care about that sort of thing as long as they arent everywhere, but if its taken too far things just start looking ugly.
|
|
|
|
|
billhilly
Mar 4, 2006, 12:16 AM
Post #67 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 75
|
Speaking of vandalism, I wonder who the moron is that spray painted letters at the top of all the walls at Tanner dome. It's not like there hard to tell apart from the guide book.
Also I don't think John Gill uses chalk anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
metoliusdmm
Mar 4, 2006, 1:58 AM
Post #68 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 12
|
In reply to: I've seen a huge increase in climber caused vandalism. The rock next to Coyne Crack say "(I forgot the name) sucks" then sucks is crossed out and "kicks ass" is written under it. T
oh man, can't belive that! that's no bueno!
|
|
|
|
|
chitlinsconcarne
Mar 4, 2006, 6:32 AM
Post #69 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 199
|
In reply to: Just my opinion. I also do not advocate plaques in this day and age. Plus "Those who were unhappy about the plaques could simply send it trundling down the slope to burst in a hundred pieces and you got your problem taken care of. "
I'm certainly guilty of leaving my share of plaques at the base of routes, not just in Indian Creek, but in other areas of the desert southwest as well. At the time it seemed like a reasonable way to mark routes.
Likewise, I no longer would leave markers-not just because there are so many people in the desert now, but also because I no longer have the same feelings about leaving evidence of my activities.
With that said, however, it seems strange to me that people would feel upset about a few characters scratched on bit of loose sandstone sitting at the base of a crack and yet not think twice about accepting the drilled anchors at the top. There is a dichotomy here.
|
|
|
|
|
ronamick
Mar 4, 2006, 12:42 PM
Post #70 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
|
youre lucky all you see is scratching and chalk grafitti on your rocks. The mindless chipping, prying and attemped enhancement of holds at woodson and around san diego has gotten epidemic, as has needless defoliation and pointless damage to vegetation.
Some fools have gotten the idea that if a hold isnt seamlessly welded to the rock then it needs to be removed. Holds on 30 year old 5.9 trade routes are being pried and chipped at in an attempt to remove them, leaving a ruined hold and ugly scars. Why they dont stop when the hold proves impossible to budge is beyond me. These are real assholes, whomever they may be.
Brush is being devastated around climbs that already have perfect landings, top access and kickback spots as well. Why? Who knows, but shade, windblock and privacy is being eradicated by misguided morons. My fondest wish is to catch some of these miscreants red handed so that I may lecture them in the error of their ways (heh). Its a sign of the times sadly.
On the upside, I just turned 50 and oughta be dead pretty quick here, and none of it will bother me then.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 6, 2006, 3:41 PM
Post #71 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
This thread took some twists.
First off, Dingus, I lost a ton of respect for you. Just because something has been done, doesn't mean you should accept it.
To those of you who think your rock art is as legitimate as ancient people's, step out of your clouds and into reality. You are comparing modern American culture to that of a hunter gatherer society with no recorded records? Ummm, I'll let you ponder that one.
Tick Marks. This thread wasn't about tick marks. But since you asked, I've been on cracks as hard as 13a and never had trouble finding the good jams regardless of ticks. They seem completely pointless.
"Chalk is not permanent" - Nothing is permanent, not the mountains or even our existance on this planet. It's more about the impact we have or don't have on upcoming generations. I'm talking about the desert where it rarely rains. A steep varnished wall rarely even gets wet (otherwise it wouldn't be so steep and varnished), especially under a roof. Without scrubbing and powerwashing, I think a lot of this chalk will out live us all.
"Plaques" I find them acceptable only in Indian Creek, all other Wingate should be left un-plaqued. This is debateable. If you break a plaque, out of respect, I hope you can at least climb that route.
"Cairns" I agree with Sexy_Sheep, it keeps the erosion down. Was this thread about that? Hijack anyone.
The Aussie thing, I guess we don't have foriegn species ruining our habitat, so who are we to complain.
Uhh, what else. LEAVE NO TRACE ETHIC!!! enough said.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Mar 6, 2006, 4:17 PM
Post #72 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: First off, Dingus, I lost a ton of respect for you. Just because something has been done, doesn't mean you should accept it.
What are you talking about???
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
weschrist
Mar 6, 2006, 4:33 PM
Post #73 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 579
|
In reply to: You are comparing modern American culture to that of a hunter gatherer society with no recorded records?
petroglyphs
In reply to: A steep varnished wall rarely even gets wet (otherwise it wouldn't be so steep and varnished)
water or angle has nothing to do with varnish... it is formed by microbes and wind blown clay particles.
http://eduscapes.com/...rocvarnsh/index1.htm
In reply to: "Plaques" I find them acceptable only in Indian Creek, all other Wingate should be left un-plaqued. This is debateable. If you break a plaque, out of respect, I hope you can at least climb that route.
You are making no sense at all. Why only in Indian Creek? Why would you have to be able to climb the route in order to justify breaking a plaque?
In reply to: The Aussie thing, I guess we don't have foriegn species ruining our habitat, so who are we to complain.
Burros in Red Rocks, wild horses, tamarisk, spotted knapweed... the list goes on and on... we do have foreign species ruining our habitats, maybe not to the extent that the Aussies do, but they are here.
In reply to: Uhh, what else. LEAVE NO TRACE ETHIC!!! enough said.
You would think, but it is much more complicated than that. Climbing is growing really fast and people straight out of the gym don't know any better. Many people who are climbing these days haven't spent the time in nature that it takes to appreciate and respect the natural beauty. They are still stuck in the mindset that they are somehow conquering nature... hence they feel the need to show others they have succeeded.
Perhaps you should try educating people if and when you see them doing such things, organize a chalk clean up day, or simply clean the chalk up yourself. If 5 people saw you taking the time to scrub the chalk hand prints out from under IHC or the names from the base of Coyne Crack they might get the message, realize how much better it looks, and pass the ethic on to friends. Or you could just get pissed off and see where that gets you.
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Mar 6, 2006, 6:21 PM
Post #74 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
ryanwms:
In answer to your question, traditionally it is ok to remove leaves, sticks, loose dirt and rocks, from a new route. There is no set rule, but my guideline has always been, anything that you can tell would be gone after the route had been climbed a few times by responsible climbers, might as well be cleaned off right away. Safely tossing down loose rocks to make things safer is standard practice, too. Others may disagree with that, but the reason you see little loose rock on routes that are climbed a lot is because someone else has already done so.
It is good you are concerned.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Mar 6, 2006, 7:18 PM
Post #75 of 93
(9482 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
In reply to: "Plaques" I find them acceptable only in Indian Creek, all other Wingate should be left un-plaqued. This is debateable. If you break a plaque, out of respect, I hope you can at least climb that route.
I am not sure I understand the logic here...
|
|
|
|
|
|
