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md3
Mar 10, 2006, 5:55 PM
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Dogs on leashes are much more of a pain than dogs off. Dogs off eventually work out their issues with each other after they wrestle a little. If your dog can't be trusted off leash, leave them at home - or better yet, work with them so that they can. Those that never can be trusted off leash really are not appropriate pets.
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el_jerko
Mar 10, 2006, 6:15 PM
Post #28 of 172
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Dog threads are the best!
Statements like:
"Don't be a jerk about my dog or its your problem. NOT mine."
are what make them the best.
I grew up in cowboy country where dogs are a big part of the culture. Interestingly I remember very few occasions where dogs were a problem. I think there are several reasons for this;
First, people ranked higher than dogs. That is the wants and needs of people were placed ahead of dogs. Your typical urban dog owner sees thing exactly the opposite and will put the whims of their dog ahead of your very life.
Second, people were responsible for the actions of their dogs. If a dog did something wrong the community took the view that since the dog was an agent of its owner, in effect the owner had done it. Therefore if someone’s dog killed a chicken or whatever, they were obligated to pay for it. I think you will find that the court system takes a similar view. Urban dog owners do not. They feel their dogs are free agents and can do whatever they damn well please.
Third, if a dog was running about causing trouble unattended it was viewed as a public menace and shot. The owner was of course still responsible for any damage the dog caused. This may sound harsh, but people who did not want to pay for dead or injured livestock and wanted to keep their dog alive kept pretty good track of it.
In summery I would say that the never ending debate over dogs at the crags is a result of many dog owners thinking their dogs are just so super special they more important than people and should have their needs put first, that they are not responsible for the actions of their dogs, the dog is not responsible for its own actions, and no matter how the dog is affecting your life your opinion means nothing and you have no recourse.
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redrocker
Mar 10, 2006, 6:47 PM
Post #29 of 172
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I love dogs and most climber's dogs that I have encountered at the crags are very well behaved and friendly. But I think people who don't want to keep company with dogs at the crag have a legitimate gripe when you bring yours and force his/her presence upon them. In essence what you're saying is "I want my dog here and I don't care whether you like it or not". Since there's always the probability that someone will not appreciate your dog at the crag, I have to say LEAVE YOUR DOG AT HOME!
Other things to leave at home when going climbing where others will be:
1) YOUR BOOM BOX! This is by far my #1 complaint. (Even if I don't object to your choice of music it still destroys the outdoor experience.)
2) Your uncontrollable urge to constantly shout out unsolicited beta!
3) Your fragile ego which requires you to talk incessantly about yourself and your accomplishments.
4) Your competitive attitude which causes you to disagree with and/or top everything that someone else says. (This is another manifestation of the fragile ego.)
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motomagik
Mar 10, 2006, 7:34 PM
Post #30 of 172
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I'm so sick of this topic I could just scream. There have been more ranting threads about his than anything else on this site I think.
But, since I'm here I might as well say that I like the original posters comment about humans claiming access to wilderness and denying of the animals, this is exactly what we do - the bullshhit laws in J-Tree for a perfect example. We can traipse all over that place on sort-of defined trails, but dogs can't be more than 100 yds from the car even on a leash? I've never heard of such a damn retarded thing in my whole life. More people should be on leashes and less dogs.
I also like jwood's comment about the yellow lab in this incident - why bring such a nice dog outside where there are other friendly dogs and people to play with and keep it on a 'tight leash"? Doesn't sound like much fun for dog or owner... but whatever floats your boat I guess.
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csproul
Mar 10, 2006, 7:56 PM
Post #31 of 172
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In reply to: I love dogs and most climber's dogs that I have encountered at the crags are very well behaved and friendly. But I think people who don't want to keep company with dogs at the crag have a legitimate gripe when you bring yours and force his/her presence upon them. In essence what you're saying is "I want my dog here and I don't care whether you like it or not". Since there's always the probability that someone will not appreciate your dog at the crag, I have to say LEAVE YOUR DOG AT HOME!
I do my best to keep my dog in line with appropriate behavior, and so far have been 100% successful (by my criteria, the only ones that matter). I only take her where it is acceptable to do so and she has never been a problem. As long as dog owners are considerate of these boundaries then yes...I really don't care whether you like it or not. Wherever people gather, someone will always have a problem with something. As long as all involved are considerate within reason, and communicate with each other, that is all anyone can ask. What if I don't want kids at the crags, or other climbers, or a particular gender or race. Do I have a legitimate gripe, meaning you or your kids (or whatever else I may have a problem with) should just stay away from the crag? The bottom line has been said: dog owners are going to continue bringing them or not, some just need to be educated as to what is appropriate at your local crag.
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outdoorsie
Mar 10, 2006, 8:24 PM
Post #32 of 172
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I'm always curious about the people who say they are dog owners but "never" take their dogs to the crag. Do you only climb at local places where you can be back in the evening to let your dog out? Or do you always have somebody available to drop by and watch your dog at the drop of a hat?
Maybe you just don't climb all that often.
My husband and I moved out to Colorado, with our dog, about two years ago. Over time, we've aquired a few friends who will occasionally watch our dog, but they do like to be given advanced notice. If we decide Friday morning that it's going to be a gorgious winter weekend and we want to spend it in the desert (away from the snow!) camping and climbing, it's either take the dog to the crag or drop the dog at a kennel. Kennels cost a lot more than $4 a night camping on BLM land, and 50% of the time your dog will come home sick.
So, what do you do? Do you just decide not to go climbing because you can't afford/find anybody to take care of the dog for a weekend? Or do you go out, camp in the desert, have fun, enjoy the sun, and do your very best to keep the dog out of people's way and out of trouble?
I'm really sorry, but sometimes it's not as easy as "Just leave your dog at home!" At least not for my husband and I.
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redlegrangerone
Mar 10, 2006, 8:34 PM
Post #33 of 172
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I generally have no problem with dogs at crags. Although I do not like coming around a bush and having a pitpull leap out. But everyone just needs to work with each other. Frankly radios bother me much more than dogs do.
I love dogs, but I have a cat because I CAN leave for the weekend without a pet sitter.
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redrocker
Mar 10, 2006, 9:10 PM
Post #34 of 172
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[quote="csproul"]
In reply to: I only take her where it is acceptable to do so and she has never been a problem. In reply to: As long as dog owners are considerate of these boundaries In reply to: then yes...I really don't care whether you like it or not. In reply to: What if I don't want kids at the crags, or other climbers, or a particular gender or race. Do I have a legitimate gripe, meaning you or your kids (or whatever else I may have a problem with) should just stay away from the crag?
Anyhow, you sound like a responsible and considerate dog owner and for that I applaud you. And just for the record, I'm sure that if I ever encounter your dog at the crag he and I will get along just fine.
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csproul
Mar 10, 2006, 9:31 PM
Post #35 of 172
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In reply to: So YOU get to decide "where it is acceptable to do so"?
In reply to: What "boundaries" are you refering to?
In reply to: I'm not sure if comparing racial, gender and age discrimination against HUMAN BEINGS really enhances your argument. |
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j_ung
Mar 10, 2006, 9:33 PM
Post #36 of 172
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In reply to: I love dogs and most climber's dogs that I have encountered at the crags are very well behaved and friendly. But I think people who don't want to keep company with dogs at the crag have a legitimate gripe when you bring yours and force his/her presence upon them. In essence what you're saying is "I want my dog here and I don't care whether you like it or not". Since there's always the probability that someone will not appreciate your dog at the crag, I have to say LEAVE YOUR DOG AT HOME! Other things to leave at home when going climbing where others will be: 1) YOUR BOOM BOX! This is by far my #1 complaint. (Even if I don't object to your choice of music it still destroys the outdoor experience.) 2) Your uncontrollable urge to constantly shout out unsolicited beta! 3) Your fragile ego which requires you to talk incessantly about yourself and your accomplishments. 4) Your competitive attitude which causes you to disagree with and/or top everything that someone else says. (This is another manifestation of the fragile ego.)
Dogs aren't allowed in most gyms anyway. :P In other words: Good god, man! Where the hell do you climb?!
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dogpaddle
Mar 10, 2006, 9:36 PM
Post #37 of 172
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I don't have a problem with people and their dogs as long as they are responsible. My dog is a 3 year old hyperactive boxer who can't keep his nose out of other peoples' business. I love to leave him off the leash to run around when hiking and such, but I don't bring him climbing with me often because I can't trust him to not run over to someone and either get in a fight with another dog, or cause injury to a climber because he's nuts. I just think that people should have good judgement when it comes to their dogs on a case by case basis. No need to punish the people who have dogs that are low key and can keep to themselves.
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redrocker
Mar 10, 2006, 9:47 PM
Post #38 of 172
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[quote="outdoorsie"] In reply to: Do you only climb at local places where you can be back in the evening to let your dog out? In reply to: Kennels cost a lot more than $4 a night camping on BLM land, and 50% of the time your dog will come home sick. So, what do you do? Do you just decide not to go climbing because you can't afford/find anybody to take care of the dog for a weekend? |
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hand2foot
Mar 10, 2006, 9:53 PM
Post #39 of 172
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Dogs can't climb! :lol: They are hiking companions at most! My dog serves a purpose... she carries in her pack some climbing gear and hers and my poo... what does she care, she eats poo, she can carry it!... she's a pack mule, a certified fecal/ equipment carrier, and in some cases... she serves as good defense from creepy bush crawlers (including people with bad intentions, which is the number one choice why I got a dog.... gun or dog? hmmm... I'll take both!). But here are some rules I go by... feel free to slam me later...as everybody thrives on disagreement
If I am going to a popular crag, I leave the mutt at home or pick somewhere else...
If there's already 80 dogs at the crag, I go elsewhere...
As for multipitch, my dog tied to my pack prevents theft, if it is a popular multipitch area I'm familiar with, she gets left at home.
If she hates the people or the dogs at the crag, and we are in the middle of nowhere away from major hiking trails, then I let her wander. She'd rather go track down mice or rabbits then deal with trouble.
I find that most dog trouble comes from easily accessed crags with no hike. If they can't belay, then why bring them? The crag isn't a dog park! my dog hates the dog park, she also hates busy crags. Ever wonder why dogs fight at the crag? It's because the owners are all forcing their dogs to stay in one spot and get along. A whiny dog obviously isn't happy.
Most importantly, she's an animal! So I treat her like an animal... not a child. Animals bark, fight and poo whenever they want because they're animals, they have no reason...
Dogs aren't zen creatures, and whoever expects them to be are going to be in for a real surprise at one time or another.
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csproul
Mar 10, 2006, 9:55 PM
Post #40 of 172
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I'm guessing that this is just going to be an "agree to disagree situation" as I doubt anyone's minds are going to be changed. So I agree that if we were ever to meet we would probably get along just fine. If anything, I am overly cautious about my dog's behavior and go out of my way to make sure she is not bothering anyone. For the most part, if anyone politely told me they had a problem with something my dog was doing, I'd go out of my way to fix the situation. But if someone tells me they just plain have a problem with my dog being there, then I guess I'd probably be defensive and not really care to help remedy the situation.
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redrocker
Mar 10, 2006, 10:13 PM
Post #41 of 172
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In reply to: In reply to: I love dogs and most climber's dogs that I have encountered at the crags are very well behaved and friendly. But I think people who don't want to keep company with dogs at the crag have a legitimate gripe when you bring yours and force his/her presence upon them. In essence what you're saying is "I want my dog here and I don't care whether you like it or not". Since there's always the probability that someone will not appreciate your dog at the crag, I have to say LEAVE YOUR DOG AT HOME! Other things to leave at home when going climbing where others will be: 1) YOUR BOOM BOX! This is by far my #1 complaint. (Even if I don't object to your choice of music it still destroys the outdoor experience.) 2) Your uncontrollable urge to constantly shout out unsolicited beta! 3) Your fragile ego which requires you to talk incessantly about yourself and your accomplishments. 4) Your competitive attitude which causes you to disagree with and/or top everything that someone else says. (This is another manifestation of the fragile ego.) Dogs aren't allowed in most gyms anyway. :P In other words: Good god, man! Where the hell do you climb?! |
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outdoorsie
Mar 10, 2006, 10:13 PM
Post #42 of 172
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In reply to: In reply to: Do you only climb at local places where you can be back in the evening to let your dog out? Two words: Doggie Door!
Three words: Third floor apartment! Yeah, I'll make a little doggie door so my dog can run around the parking lot all weekend while I'm not there.
In reply to: In reply to: Kennels cost a lot more than $4 a night camping on BLM land, and 50% of the time your dog will come home sick. So, what do you do? Do you just decide not to go climbing because you can't afford/find anybody to take care of the dog for a weekend? YOU decided to get a dog, but now ALL OF US are supposed to be sympathetic to the inconvenience and financial implications of that decision?
Yeah, I'm bored and watching this thread today. Looks like you are too Redrocker. After posting the last post I thought "Wow, I sound really whiney. Here come da flames!"
All I wanted people to realize was that everybody has different situations. The minute you scream "Just leave your dog at home!" you are making huge assumptions about their lives. The fact of the matter is, dogs are allowed in these areas. There's no rules saying they aren't. And plenty of people are going to bring their dogs along no matter what you say because they have to (and they can).
I got my dog well before I ever started climbing. In fact, I got her before I owned my own sleeping bag. I guess, the minute I found out that dogs aren't always appreciated at the base of climbs I should have just given up the sport there and then... :roll:
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j_ung
Mar 10, 2006, 10:38 PM
Post #43 of 172
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First thing tomorrow, I and my dog are headed to Summersville Lake for more fun and verticalilty. We've hit the crags four of the last five days and I see no reason to end that streak now. If any of you know how to get to Whippoorwill and you don't mind a well-behaved Cocker Spaniel running around free, please join us. If you do mind... well, of course you're still welcome, but you'll be happier if you go someplace else.
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el_jerko
Mar 12, 2006, 3:13 PM
Post #44 of 172
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I find these dog threads truly fascinating. There are these people who live in third floor apartments and keep their dog locked in a crate all week, and then they let it run wild and raise hell at climbing areas on the weekend. They seem to think that occasionally letting the dog go berserk in public proves they love their dog and that anyone who disagrees isn’t a “dog lover.” Personally, I think if someone loved dogs they would not have one if they were not able to provide a healthy lifestyle. But these people are not really thinking of the dog; to them a dog is a possession that can be used to draw attention to ones self. They also like the fact that they get to lord over something that is totally dependant on them and dogs being dogs will love them despite the situation. It's more sad than anything.
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mindaa
Mar 12, 2006, 7:23 PM
Post #46 of 172
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Last thing I want to do is rant more, obviously this issue is Never going to be resolved. . . but for everyone who says their dog is just way to well behaved need to be on leash at a crag I just beg them to please, please, please consider some of the safety issues in letting their dog run free.
I've had dogs shower rocks down on my group from a trail above and how often will they plop down on a rope that's in use.
If another climber were to do this -- nobody would argue that it was a unsafe.
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shanz
Mar 12, 2006, 8:51 PM
Post #47 of 172
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Keep the dogs on a leash or leave em at home -
What about my my cat thats part bobcat do i have to leash him too? i can bet he could get up a 12 no problem with a little enouragment :lol: :lol:
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heximp
Mar 12, 2006, 9:54 PM
Post #48 of 172
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I don't have a problem with dogs at Crags. I do have a problem with "Dog Owners" that don't have a good relationship/command of their pets.
Yeah, I would forget that my dog (Zoey) isn't human... I always thought of her as my sister with a fuzzy face.
But... I always brought a leash despite the fact that she never left my side. It is true that I would hike into places with her unleashed, but I was always prepared to leash her if something unusual came our way. (I call that being responsible for my dog and her actions.)
Plus, when we bumped into people who were afraid of dogs. I would leash her immediately "even though she never left my side." Fear is a very irrational and private emotion. I never wanted to make someone feel bad because I thought my dog was harmless... What mattered to me as a dog owner is what "they thought and needed to feel comfortable around her."
I must also state that even Zoey who was well trained would get herself in trouble. If anything ran, her first impulse was to chase it... Luckily she would stop at command. (It once was a bear.)
During that time, putting her on the leash was to comfort me. (The leash is for the dog's safety too.)
People should learn to be good dog owners. They should know that they are responsible for their dog's behavior. If the dog acts bad, then they should modify it's behavior immediately. If they are unable to do this, they must remove it from public contact. It is important to respect everyone’s' right to their personal space/peace.
I also think this applies to parents. Children misbehaving and parents letting it happen is beyond my understanding. If they can't control their kids, then they should stay home. I don't know how many times I had to save a kid from falling off of an edge, stop them from playing with the anchors, hitting each other etc...
I think all these people need to take classes, get their heads checked, learn responsibility. Maybe if we reported them and there were consequences for their actions... Then again, they probably will just pass the blame on... "Frustrating..."
(Next thing you know, they are blaming the high school teacher (me) for not raising their kid right...) Aargh...
P.S.
Zoey was a 70 pound German sheperd/Akita mix. I weight 105 pounds... If I could control her "leashed and off leashed..." Everyone should be able to control theirs. (I made sure that no one "could" complain about her.)
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ter_bee
Mar 12, 2006, 11:20 PM
Post #49 of 172
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In reply to: I find these dog threads truly fascinating. There are these people who live in third floor apartments and keep their dog locked in a crate all week, and then they let it run wild and raise hell at climbing areas on the weekend. They seem to think that occasionally letting the dog go berserk in public proves they love their dog and that anyone who disagrees isn’t a “dog lover.” blah blah what i think. But these people are not really thinking of the dog; to them a dog is a possession that can be used to draw attention to ones self. They also like the fact that they get to lord over something that is totally dependant on them and dogs being dogs will love them despite the situation. It's more sad than anything.
Who are you talking about? Your intro refers to this thread, but unless these third-floor dog-users are lurking here, I find the connection to this thread tenuous. Even the czechs whose mastiffs loomed so terrifyingly over me and my friends at the crag clearly cared about their dogs. They just didn't care about US, the total strangers at the crag who were shaking in their anasazis. In fact, my guess is that most of the dog owners brave enough to risk the wrath of all the dog haters (here in droves, apparently)by bringing them to the crag probably just didn't want them to have to hang alone all day. I wouldn't either. they get lonely.
t.
post script for the folks who got offended when i said nature lovers should like dogs: meh. i guess you don't have to 'LIKE' every species of animal to enjoy nature, but what would nature be without animals? quiet and dead. and i do find it odd that any nature lover would decide to hate an entire species, especially one so well adapted to humans.
random question: how do you dog-haters feel about young children? they slobber and smell funny and scream while you're trying to read or work...? so inconvenient. :P
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el_jerko
Mar 15, 2006, 5:44 PM
Post #50 of 172
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ter bee
I am talking about dog owners in general. They say that their dogs need to be at the crag, preferably unleashed. Reasons generally involve some form of “its natural for animals to run wild and it is something they need to do” or “they just sit there anyway so what difference does it make?” Some poster above said he can’t leave his dog home because he lives in a third floor apartment and has to take it to the crag. My point was that the other 6 days of the week these dogs that "need" to run wild at the crag are locked up by themselves somewhere. In many cases I am sure in a little plastic crate. If people really loved their dogs they would not have them locked up in crates most of the time.
Nature has nothing to do with dogs which are domesticated animals. Turning dogs loose in a natural area is going to have a negative impact for many reasons.
Also, do not make the mistake of thinking that people who do not want dogs at the crag do not like dogs; it is just not an appropriate place to have them. Like restaurants, most people would not want a bunch of dogs running around while they are trying to eat and enjoy themselves.
It is unreasonable to compare children to dogs. Children are people and dogs are animals. As much as you may hate it children are valued higher than dogs and therefore are tolerated in many situations where dogs are not.
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