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ubotch
Mar 28, 2006, 12:48 AM
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Even though I am still a long ways off from doing my first wall I am thinking it all through and have a couple of questions.
1.) Probably the biggest thing that is going to hold me up from doing a wall is not being able to afford all of the gear for quite some time. Because of this I'm wondering if it is reasonable to use a pulley and ascender combination for hauling instead of one of those fancy pulley/cam rigs. Since I will already have ascenders it seems simple and cheap to use that to haul but it seems like people are always talking about the pro-traxion and other similar devices. Are those necessary?
2.) What do you big wallers do to protect yourself in case something goes wrong in the haul and the pig goes flying off down the cliff until it is jerked to a stop at the end of the rope? Picturing that scenario scares the crap out of me. So do you do something like attach screamers to the end of the line or do you just build a strong anchor and hope it doesn't happen?
If my questions aren't clear enough let me know.
Thanks in advance for the help.
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crotch
Mar 28, 2006, 1:15 AM
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[quote:b3af199241="ubotch"][is it]reasonable to use a pulley and ascender combination for hauling instead of one of those fancy pulley/cam rigs. [/quote:b3af199241]
Yes. You'll need an ascender on the pig side of the pulley pointing down, and weighted with some gear. That's the ascender that replaces the one in those fancy hauling setups like the pro-traxion. It keeps the bag from sliding back down after you complete a haul stroke. You'll also need a way to connect yourself to the haul line either with a second ascender, or gri-gri so that you can pull the bag up. This setup has been extensively diagrammed and explained in climbing texts.
[quote:b3af199241]2.) What do you big wallers do to protect yourself in case something goes wrong in the haul and the pig goes flying off down the cliff until it is jerked to a stop at the end of the rope?[/quote:b3af199241]
The haulbag should never come flying off. If that happens, you've already screwed the pooch.
Your haul system should incorporate redundancy. Back up the pulley with a draw clipped through the haul line and your anchor. Again, this is diagrammed in many texts. Since the haul line is attached to 2 ascenders (one on the pig side of the pulley, and one connected to you) you're backed up if one of the ascenders fails.
If one of those ascenders does go kaput mid-haul you might want to quickly rig a prussic from the anchor to the haul line before you take further corrective action.
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iamthewallress
Mar 28, 2006, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: 1.) Probably the biggest thing that is going to hold me up from doing a wall is not being able to afford all of the gear for quite some time. Because of this I'm wondering if it is reasonable to use a pulley and ascender combination for hauling instead of one of those fancy pulley/cam rigs. Since I will already have ascenders it seems simple and cheap to use that to haul but it seems like people are always talking about the pro-traxion and other similar devices. Are those necessary?
Some people prefer that method as it lets them use a bigger pulley.
One of the disadvantages of using that method to save on gear cost is that if you only have two ascenders and one ends up on the pulley rig, then if you're body hauling, you'll have to jug w/ one ascender. This isn't a big deal if you can stay right at the anchor and have a light load or if you are using a jumar/gri-gri system anyway, but if you prefer to "jug the haul" with two jugs, as I do, then it will be a pain. You can solve the problem by bringing another ascender, but at that point, you'll have speant nearly as much as the Pro-Traxion anyway.
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tarsier
Mar 28, 2006, 6:22 AM
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You could start with a pully and prusik cords. Then ascenders will seem like a big step up.
And if you ever drop an ascender, you'll be less likely to dangle helplessly until ravens pick your carcass clean.
Hmmm... that advice sounds so good maybe I'll try it myself.
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holdplease2
Mar 28, 2006, 6:27 AM
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The pully-ascender method has a few advantages over the protraxion, IMO, though both work fine.
1) Larger pully possibility - this is nice if you want to solo later or if you have a smaller partner. Big pullys can be expensive...as expensive as the protraxion itself, you want one with bearings, I paid over $100 for my 4 inch rescue pully.
2) Wallress is right, you won't necessarilly save money with the separate pieces. And you will probably want 2 ascenders free when hauling, specially if the loads are heavy, and absolutely if you have to use a mechanical advantage.
3) Carrying a spare ascender if you are solo is a good idea. Having a hauling rig with a separate pully and ascender counts. In this case, if necessary, you can use the spare ascender not just in your pully/ascender rig, but to compensate if you, like so many do, drop one of your ascenders. If you don't have a spare ascender with you, and you use a protraxion, be sure to know how to jug with your grigri.
4) For your pully rig and for your spare ascender, you could also use a Petzl Kroll or Petzl Basic, which are handle-less ascenders. You could find these or a handled ascender on ebay. I'd have no problem buying and using a used ascender after a visual inspection.
Hope this helps,
-Kate.
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fritzl
Mar 28, 2006, 7:28 AM
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As is mentioned below, you might want to consider the "door number 3" which is to use a pulley and a third ascender. I carry an old Wild Country Ropeman (mark I, with ridges not teeth) and it would be fine for hauling like this, and can be put into play in mechanical advantage scenarios, whether hauling gear or during (self) rescue.
Even the Grigri manual suggests that it can be used as a hauler, though how you get it up from the belayer is another matter entirely...
Plenty of options here, but if you're like most people climbing walls: once you've done it the hard/cheap way, you'll raid the piggy bank for the integrated tools. They just make life much easier.
F
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ubotch
Mar 28, 2006, 5:26 PM
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A pulley for $100! I thought that might be a way to save money but maybe not. Like fritzl says, I don't want to go cheap in the beginning only to rebuy everything.
Sounds like my fears abou the pig being set free at unfounded.
Thanks for the responses.
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pbcowboy77
Mar 29, 2006, 9:48 PM
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Dude go on ebay, I'm putting togeather my aid rack and have got a bunch of stuff for half the price.
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sspssp
Mar 30, 2006, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: Regarding the haul bag whipping: It's killed people before, so concern is justified.... Retired lead lines make great 1:1 haul lines; dynamic haul line adds a measure of safety.
Yea haul bags have been dropped. And if you drop it, you are better off with it not being attached to anything.
Hauling with a dynamic line would probably be enough to keep the haul bag from ripping your anchor out if you dropped it the length of the rope. Especially if it was a big bolted anchor on a trade route.
Dynamic hauling has a downside in that the rope "yo-yos" each time you try to weight it.
A retired lead line that wasn't too skinny would be ok for hauling. I personally wouldn't haul with a skinny retired line
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holdplease2
Mar 30, 2006, 7:03 AM
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My partner and I almost lost our pig once. During the process of hauling, the screw gate caribiner unscrewed due to the vibration of the line. The two pigs attached to the biner then twisted it into a cross-loaded position, the gate was open when the pigs got to the anchor. I didn't see it, 'cause I was leading, but apparently the pigs were hanging on the hooked nose of the biner or something like that.
We know the screw gate vibrated open, because after the incident, my partner screwed the gate closed. At the next anchor, it had vibrated open again.
-Kate.
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euroford
Mar 30, 2006, 12:36 PM
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-gulp-
i just bought a bunch of petzl balllock biners. i've never been too crazy about those things, but they sounded like a good safe idea for rigging that kinda stuff. my buyers remorse has now officially been resolved.
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noshoesnoshirt
Mar 30, 2006, 2:34 PM
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In reply to: 2.) What do you big wallers do to protect yourself in case something goes wrong in the haul and the pig goes flying off down the cliff until it is jerked to a stop at the end of the rope?
Shit your britches and get right with god
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iamthewallress
Mar 30, 2006, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: -gulp- i just bought a bunch of petzl balllock biners. i've never been too crazy about those things, but they sounded like a good safe idea for rigging that kinda stuff. my buyers remorse has now officially been resolved.
I'm superstitious about using them for everything where it really, really counts now. I just bought some of the big "William" ones for my jumars.
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ubotch
Mar 30, 2006, 11:19 PM
Post #14 of 16
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This is why I love this place. You guys are great.
I have been thinking of ways to go cheap, including starting off on routes that don't need a portaledge. I'm thinking the Rainbow Wall Original Route could be a good first wall. Any thoughts on that?
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moof
Mar 30, 2006, 11:59 PM
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In reply to: I have been thinking of ways to go cheap, including starting off on routes that don't need a portaledge. I'm thinking the Rainbow Wall Original Route could be a good first wall. Any thoughts on that?
Get a budget ledge from Fish for $200. Bomber, comfy, and priced right. He'll sell you a fly down the road for $250.
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apollodorus
Mar 31, 2006, 6:56 AM
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
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If you use a plain pulley and a jumar upside down, you're going to be fine. The downside of this rig is mostly that you won't be able to pull the pig up as far, compared to a combined pulley/ratchet rig. Sometimes the wall anchors don't have a vertical spread for this type of setup. So, you use several pieces, equalized, up the next pitch to get the higher anchor.
For your first wall, use the jumar for hauling. For your next wall (and I don't have to tell you this) get a good hauling rig. You want a good, STRONG hauling rig for walls. You want to be able to trust the haul rig for two people on the free end of the rope, and bags on the other side.
Back up a haul rig with a big locker around the rope, in case it rips.
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