Decartes offered his belief in God thusly:

Doubt implies uncertainty. Uncertainty implies imperfection. But if there is imperfection, then that implies there must be something perfect. That perfectness is what he inferred to be God.

Rene Decartes... quite probably the greatest thinker ever, and one who influenced more rational thought than most people, still believed in God (in fact, his "Discourse on the Method" was edited and revised several times for fear that he'd offend his Church.)

Oh, sure... make me actually think during a debate here. You've got some nerve, pal!

By radical materialism I meant those folks who ascribe all to matter, whereas matter is the cause of the whole shebang, leading folks to think and believe that if it has no material to measure, it ain't real. I didn't mean someone hung up on trade goods.

And of course you can do both. But the lack of thinking by head injury or the breeze on El Cap is something different than what I'm driving at. But I took a shot at it, as I do sometimes on this list. Now it's time for that beer.

JL

He's certainly put you in some unfamiliar territory.

Clearly the problems people have with religion and science are not religion and science themselves. Its how other people pursue them, and proseltyze them.

Its like term limits in politics... they aren't to get rid of YOUR guy. They're to get rid of that other b----.

So much of what we object to, in religion or science, is how OTHER PEOPLE practice them.

You'd have to boil my dad in oil to get him to talk about religion. I really have no idea of his belief system, he won't engage. But he's really not interested in hearing the beliefs of others either. I think there may be grace in that approach...

The School of MYOB.

DMT

Is it just me or is anyone else dissapointed that this thread has kind of died without jred at some point telling vivalargo to "STFU n00b"?

Naw' he's not so bad. I think the problem is that people who are very spiritual can not grasp that a person can be completely based in reality. There that is as close to stfu as I will go.

Yeah, cause beating your arguments usually doesn't require much thought at all.

To "beat" my arguments, you would first have to comprehend them--something you have time and time again demonstrated yourself incapable of.

It's your fantasy though, so make it as big as you like. You argue like you climb...........weak.

...Shoulder a 40 lb pack, do a 10 mile ski approach, and run up 1700 feet of alpine ice with me... then you can talk, pebble-wrestler. ;)

I meant difficult technical climbing.

Huh? What ever gave you the idea that I was based in unreality? Your comment insists that you have some special, more fundamantal grasp of what reality really and truly is, while a spiritual path perforce removes you from reality. Actually the process works exactly the opposite, whereas a true spiritual path is all about punching through yor own illusions--heavy lifting by any measure, especially when you're convinced that you have the Real Deal in hand, and that everyone else is trading in illusions or New Age blue wind . . .


JL

Really man , to be honest a good friend of mine presented all of your arguments for UFO's, should I believe all of the red-neck anal probed abductees were kidnapped by aliens? What is the difference?
I have punched through my illusions years ago and I have never subscribed to yours. I do not fear the unknown or death. I am comfortable knowing this is it. I see my carcass rotting in the earth, feeding maggots and pill bugs who will feed birds and fish, and so on. I see beauty in nature and it's cycles. I appreciate life for what it is, a beautiful, coincidental collision of chemicals. I marvel at all of the life I see, and appreciate life to the fullest, knowing I am finite as everything else in the universe is. Is that so offensive to you?
I do not think everyone else is trading in new age blue wind or illusions. I am respectful of (most) others beliefs and would never judge somebody or try to refute their beliefs. So please, It has never been "on". It is funny that you are so incapable of grasping that I truly KNOW there is no god, trying to convince me otherwise is like me trying to convince you that you are purple polka-dotted or even crazier that there is no pie-in-the-sky.

The kind you do in your creased Gucci pants?? :lol:

Please tell me you guys are buddies.

Please tell me you guys are buddies.

Yep. Curt and I disagree on many things, but he's a man of character and I'd back him up in a bar fight any day.

That was the most homophobic proclamation of friendship that I think I've ever heard from a guy who considers himself an intellectual. GGRRR, you HE-MAN, you. :D