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misanthropic_nihilist
Apr 5, 2006, 10:21 PM
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I tried to resurrect the old thread with the same title, but kept getting an error message. But I have a few questions I'd like answered, if possible...
I'm planning on rigging a tree to tree highline this summer. It looks like my setup is going to be 3 lines (top line fully tensioned, middle line half tensioned, and bottom line hand tensioned), each tied off at both ends onto shackles (5/16 inch pin diameter, 6000 lb breaking load).
-I know most of you go with bigger shackles than what I am planning on using, but why? 6000 pounds is already 50% stronger than a single strand of 1 inch webbing.
-When you set up a highline with new webbing, how do you deal with all the extra stretch? Do you have to de-tension the line, move the knots, then re-tension the main line repeatedly until it stops stretching?
-The trees I'm thinking of rigging are 100ft+ Sycamores. I'd put the line about 60 feet up, where the main trunk diameter is still about 2 feet. Obviously rigging with a single tree for an anchor isn't redundant, so I could tie back each tree to another tree behind it. But does anyone think that it's really necessary? As long as the trees are alive (which they are), the webbing and shackles are going to fail before anything happens to the trees. But I've always been taught to never rely on a single anchor point, no matter how bomber.
Thanks,
m_n
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coldclimb
Apr 6, 2006, 1:13 AM
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I don't have enough time at the moment to give a complete answer, but I'm sure someone will. This just stood out, so I figured I'd respond real quick.
In reply to: -I know most of you go with bigger shackles than what I am planning on using, but why? 6000 pounds is already 50% stronger than a single strand of 1 inch webbing.
Because if ANY part of the system fails, you die. It's as simple as that. It's not like climbing, where a biner unclips or a placement pulls and you fall to the next draw. We cannot afford to take a chance at failure, or to have strength limits anywhere near the loads we put on the system, because if we discover we made a mistake, there is no second chance, someone is dead.
If you've never seen anyone rig a highline, don't try it until you do. Seriously.
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slacklinejoe
Apr 6, 2006, 2:45 AM
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In reply to: If you've never seen anyone rig a highline, don't try it until you do. Seriously.
Ditto that.
Just my opinion, but as for the shackle, if your trusting your rig to a single point failure issue it should be so ridiculously overkill that there is no realistic way it should come close to it's rating.
While just complicating things when working with industrial rigging that isn't specifically life saving I think it's important to note is proof strength vs breaking strength vs working load strength. If it's 6,000 lb test break strength there may not be much additional safety margin built into. If it is working load you'll have more of a safety margin. Some industrial stuff comes rated by work load, others by break strength. For most manufacturers I've worked with work load is 1/3 break strength.
I use 35KN steel rescue carabiners but they also aren't all to a single point. Those are 7,868 lb test. I don't consider them overkill enough to trust it all to 1 of them. 10,000 lb test shackles do make sense, even if I haven't gone that route yet.
Highlining safely isn't cheap or to be taken lightly by the inexperienced. Cutting corners is cutting your life-line.
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slacklinejoe
Apr 6, 2006, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: If you've never seen anyone rig a highline, don't try it until you do. Seriously.
Ditto that.
Just my opinion, but as for the shackle, if your trusting your rig to a single point failure issue it should be so ridiculously overkill that there is no realistic way it should come close to it's rating.
While just complicating things when working with industrial rigging that isn't specifically life saving I think it's important to note is proof strength vs breaking strength vs working load strength. If it's 6,000 lb test break strength there isn't much additional safety margin built into.
I use 35KN steel rescue carabiners but they also aren't all to a single point. Those are 7,868 lb test. I don't consider them overkill enough to trust it all to 1 of them. 10,000 lb test shackles do make sense, even if I haven'g gone that route yet.
Highlining safely isn't cheap or to be taken lightly by the inexperienced. Cutting corners is cutting your life-line - remember you do not have a backup.
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misanthropic_nihilist
Apr 6, 2006, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: 3 lines, each tied off at both ends onto shackles
Sorry, I should have been more clear...
My set up will essentially be 3 completely independant lines on top of each other. That means 2 shackles per line, or 6 shackles total. With the exception of the single trees as anchors, each part of the highline would be backed up at least twice.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 6, 2006, 3:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 3 lines, each tied off at both ends onto shackles Sorry, I should have been more clear... My set up will essentially be 3 completely independant lines on top of each other. That means 2 shackles per line, or 6 shackles total. With the exception of the single trees as anchors, each part of the highline would be backed up at least twice.
aside from echoing what joe and john said, about not doing this until you've seen someone else do it...
i think you're on the right track. overkill now so you/your friends/your parents don't have to wonder why something broke and killed someone.
put it this way: would you rather it be 15000 lbs too strong? or 50 lbs too weak?
as for the single anchor question...i think having the three indie lines run is a good start. relying on one tree, you're correct, it's not so redundant.
think about this: a sport route consists of numerous bolts and anchors. all those bolts are going into the same rock. granted, they're placed far from each other, so as to act independently, but they are all connected to one single route. does this make them not redundant? what if they were 6 inches apart?
i got distracted and forgot where i was going with all of that, so i'll end with this:
this is stuff you should learn in person, not from the internet. i know it's been said before, and will be said again, but it's for a good reason. it's true.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 6, 2006, 2:54 PM
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First of all the rating printed on the shackle is working strength, the breaking strength is much higher (most industrial applications are rated at working strength, not breaking strength).
Second the shackle should be backed up too. Why would you rig a proper highline and leave out something as simple as a spanset tether to backup the shackle too?
Back up the shackle too. Full redundancy and bomberness is what you are after. You should back up the shackle on your highly tensioned top line even if you have independently anchored safety lines. There is such a thing in our world as manufacturing defects, and even with independent safety lines, if the highly tensioned line busts (which is easily the most likely scenario), a properly placed tether can keep the heavy metal shackle from launching if it is released of its tension, (the tape won't hold it back!) and the same tether can keep your walking line in tact in the unlikely event of a shackle failure of some sort.
Even Joe's 35kn rescue biners are just as limited in design as a wire gate biner as far as the directions they are designed to be loaded in. Come on Joe aren't you an engineer? Do you really highline with biners (of any sort) at your power point?? what about the range of possible deflection at the power point depending on the whipper location on the line? or the possible twisting forces from the line and whippered walker on the power point?? those forces are much better accepted by a shackle of even or greater strength than any carabiner!
It is a common mistake for people to think the shackles are just for strength, when actually their biggest benefit is the ability to stand up to loading from multiple directions, not nearly as limiting as a carbiner's design. Also the round thicker smooth design is easier on a runner or knot, than the smaller (same amount of force concentrated to a smaller focus point) carabiner, on the webbing or rope or spansets.
Very simple. Shackles can handle load from various angles, biners, even steel ones are meant to be loaded in one way. so its not all just for strength.
If your smart even the shackle is backed up, like we did in red rocks.
If the 6000 lbs is the printed working load of your shackle, it will be plenty strong for a single individually tensioned piece of webbing, because its working load (at which it can be used constantly without failure) is almost 2000lbs higher than the breaking strength of your webbing. And that shackles breaking strength is over twice that of your webbing. It will be fine, but tether it if your smart.
And Vegan is right, learn it from active highliners. Don't take our sports perfect safety record over the last 20 years into your own hands. Show up at a highline gathering or go to the Valley and see if any highliners are there.
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patto
Apr 6, 2006, 3:32 PM
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I find it funny that people suggest backing up the tree. When you climb the damn tree you are putting your life into the integrity of that one tree. There is such thing as tacking the redundancy idea a little too far.....
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 6, 2006, 3:48 PM
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If you were going to mention it, you should be using it too, instead of rescue biners, right? just looking out for you man.
Joe don't tell me you are learning something from fellow slackers? that means I'm actually going to have to like you :) :)
I've been listening to all the slackers who will talk to me since the day I started slacking, and it is still a priority today. You'd be amazed at the skill and creativity out there and the amazing stuff some of these guys come up with. My new friend Damian C comes to mind. He is so creative and fabrication savy, it will be a thrill to see how he applies his talents to our sport.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 6, 2006, 4:10 PM
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steel biners are cool for hangars, but there are some 50kn and higher out there too, it is mostly the extra space for spans or knots, and the larger more stable diameter, that are desirable, and the extra strength is cool too.
Shackles, tethered and backed up, for a power point offers some ease of use advantages too, it has the removable pin to help ease connections, and the arched horseshoe part is a good shape for equalizing multiple points of anchor.
Biners in a single direction to a power point are ok with careful placement, but at that junction of multiple dierctions, it makes sense to use a shackle .
The shackles removable pin gives it some obvious advantages over steel rings too.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 6, 2006, 4:12 PM
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steel biners are cool for hangars, but there are some 50kn and higher out there too, it is mostly the extra space for spans or knots, and the larger more stable diameter, that are desirable, and the extra strength is cool too.
Shackles, tethered and backed up, for a power point offers some ease of use advantages too, it has the removable pin to help ease connections, and the arched horseshoe part is a good shape for equalizing multiple points of anchor.
Biners in a single direction to a power point are ok with careful placement, but at that junction of multiple dierctions, it makes sense to use a shackle
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veganboyjosh
Apr 6, 2006, 7:50 PM
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awww, i was about to chide you, buddha, for making fun of joe again, and then you guys go and just about make out.
re: backing up the tree being silly:
sure, there's a point where redundancy becomes silly. but throwing an extra sling/spanset/rope around the tree just in case seems to me to be a pretty easy step to do, and you'll wish you had, if/when the line you're tied to breaks.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 6, 2006, 8:11 PM
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if too bomber and too redundant are the only criticisms of your rig you will probably be safe.
glad i could side step your wrath, Vegan :D
Josh you got to come to red rocks next year, there was free beer two nights in a row (but only if you had a $30 event pass, so not free, but easy to get your moneys worth)
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veganboyjosh
Apr 6, 2006, 8:16 PM
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In reply to: if too bomber and too redundant are the only criticisms of your rig you will probably be safe. glad i could side step your wrath, Vegan :D Josh you got to come to red rocks next year, there was free beer two nights in a row (but only if you had a $30 event pass, so not free, but easy to get your moneys worth)
unless there's free root beer happening, i'm not all that interested. i got the sxe, you know. perhaps i will make it down. who knows where i'll be in 11 months. i'd love to come downa nd send some crap. i was gonna go this year, but the invisible hands of doom kept me away.
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areyoumydude
Apr 6, 2006, 11:55 PM
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I would highly recommend that you use a slightly tensioned rope taped under your highline as a backup. It not only makes your set up bomber it also settles the highline in the wind. Wind can really fuk your sh1t up stressing your line and anchors.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 7, 2006, 1:06 AM
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Yeah I saw the craziest, biggest wind reverb on a line in Red Rocks. It was a 6 ft high camp lowline, but it was going NUTS in the wind. The highlines held up great, but i have seen Larry's rope thing in action, and it definitely helps with the wind.
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coldclimb
Apr 7, 2006, 1:50 AM
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Yeah, the rope definitely helps stop wind reverb, but I don't like the feel of it in the line, myself. I prefer not to use it unless I have to. It works though. :wink:
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slackinjacklyn
Apr 7, 2006, 3:40 AM
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I have a 70' and 120' permenant lowlines in my backyard. When the wind kicks up, man it makes a bizzare sound, and very loud. I've had to go outside several times in the middle of the night and leash the thing down (so I could sleep). A 55' long permenant highline in my yard will be up soon (1 large tree and one installed 20" diameter pole (already in) with guy lines), probably not so easy to leash that down in the middle of the night. Larry I'm calling YOU when its up.
-Terry
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veganboyjosh
Apr 7, 2006, 4:47 AM
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more info on larry's rope thing, por favor.
does he just tie a rope into one of the rings and cinch it down?
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coldclimb
Apr 7, 2006, 5:19 AM
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In reply to: more info on larry's rope thing, por favor. does he just tie a rope into one of the rings and cinch it down?
Think of the rope as another strand of webbing in the line, and treat it the same. It goes under the line usually only slightly tensioned, and ties into the power point. Then it's taped to the line with however many other pieces you're using. It stays out of the way and you never notice it's there, except for the weight. On a shorter line like the birthday gap, it's not enough to be bothersome, but I've tried it on longer ones and didn't really like it. Personal preference though, I've seen Larry and others walk some sweet lines with rope in them no problem, so I know it doesn't affect your walking detrimentally if you're good. ;)
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misanthropic_nihilist
Apr 7, 2006, 5:52 PM
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So when you guys soft point the line and take out the tensioning system, is it a hassle to adjust the tension later? I'm asking because when I set up my slackline for an afternoon, I have to add more tension a few times. It seems like unless you know exactly where to tie the frost knot, it's going to take a long time to get the line tension just right.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 7, 2006, 6:32 PM
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Time it takes to get the tension good is usually directly related to the experience of the rigger. Shawn and Larry have there stuff down really well, as I'm sure DP does too.
I usually overtighten my afternoon lowlines a little and let them loosen slightly to right where I want them, but pulleys make it really quick to adjust the tension for a lowline if you leave them in.
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v_nuthin_ace
Apr 7, 2006, 6:46 PM
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if you use spansets to softpoint, they are static, so you know the tension before you take the tightening system out, and you don't have to adjust for any give in the softpointing.
Some of the more experienced guys even have a particular percentage of stretch they achieve by measuring the gap and tying the knot at the right place to achieve a consistent percentage of stretch in the top most highly tensioned walking line. Doubt you'll get any of them to share their magic numbers though. From the individuals who have shared their # with me, i'd say its a bit up to preference and feel also.
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