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johngchrist
May 5, 2006, 11:27 AM
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IF you girth hitch a daisy to the haness and a biner on the other end do you need be worried about how you clip to make it shorter by clipping one of the loops in he middle. Do you still have to throw a twist in the loop or does the girth hitch take the twists place.
If im not makeing any sense sorry it's early and im at work blah
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glyrocks
May 5, 2006, 1:05 PM
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does your signature apply to me?
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johngchrist
May 5, 2006, 1:11 PM
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so far your the only one thats asked so deal
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chrisparedes
May 5, 2006, 1:26 PM
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Remember, daisy chains are body weight only pieces of gear which means if you want to clip in short, you must back up the daisy lest you go falling off the 3rd pitch while belaying your partner. This shows how.
http://www.bdel.com/video
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johngchrist
May 5, 2006, 2:08 PM
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all threads read, know the deal with the daisy and it's many short comings
TO address the issue in the Black diamond videoIn reply to: http://www.bdel.com/video |
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glyrocks
May 5, 2006, 2:09 PM
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sweet; then don't listen to the 'back up your daisy' advice :wink:
A good alternative (at least I think- someone correct me if I'm wrong) is to make your own daisy by tying a series of overhand knots. You can offset the amount of slack in each 'loop' to allow you to clip in short or easily clip gear while the daisy is weighted. I'm at 'work' too, so that might not make any sense either.
I mean it's an alternative to using a standard body-weight-only-loops kind of daisy chain- not to girthhitching to a biner.
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duncan_s
May 7, 2006, 9:17 PM
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I'd rather do that with a nylon sling then dyneema. Some of the recent test results are quite scary with how much strength they can lose when knotted.
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thegreytradster
May 7, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Why are you using a daisy at all for "Trad" climbing?
Daisy's or knotted slings open the possibility to creating a "human funkness device" and offer no advantages in speed or comfort over intelligent use of the rope. Learn to use a clove hitch!
Don't anchor with anything other than the rope!
Rappels are the only place you need a secondary static anchor and a double length sling girth hitched thru the harness and attached to the rap anchor with a locker works fine and eliminates the carrying of a single purpose piece of gear.
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jimfix
May 8, 2006, 2:02 AM
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Or you can have an adjustable tie in with no specialty gear at all
In reply to: I've used daisies and knotted slings, and would prolly buy a PAS if I hadn't learned this trick from some climbers in Rio: using a 9~10' length of tech cord, tie a triple-wrap Prusik knot such that a "slider" is created. Then, tie off the ends using a triple fisherman's to finish the "prusik slider on a loop". Girth hitch one end to your harness, and clip a locker into the adjustable end. You now have a bomber anchor cord that can be easily adjusted anywhere from 12" to 24" in length, instantly! I was nervous about using stiff 5.5mm tech cord at first, and tried 6mm perlon for added bite but the Prusik cinches up nicely on either type of cord. Photo links: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ramblinhammerjack/detail?.dir=/b3d4&.dnm=be41.jpg http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ramblinhammerjack/detail?.dir=/b3d4&.dnm=734e.jpg http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ramblinhammerjack/detail?.dir=/b3d4&.dnm=f2e5.jpg My main fear is abrasion of the prusik, so I move the knot to different locations on the loop every few months. You can fashion a half dozen of these for the same price as a spectra daisy, which may explain why the Brasilians like it...the import taxes can raise the price of a daisy to the equivalent of $40! The daisy requires more fiddling to set and can be rather long and dangly when climbing, whereas I keep the slider at minimum length during the climb and whip it out to the perfect length at the anchor. Between caving, climbing and rigging ropes courses I've learned a lot of tricks that are equally applicable to all genres of ropework...I'm really surprised the safety police have yet to point out that I still need a backup, quoted me the innate % strength lost from the prusik knot, the hazards of bending tech cord or called me a dumbass noob with ony 3 posts to his name. -Jack |
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glyrocks
May 8, 2006, 3:14 AM
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good ideas, thanks
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weasel
May 8, 2006, 4:26 AM
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It was my understanding that when you clip a daisy short, since there are only three bar tacks (well, usually three) holding each loop, they're not full-strength. However, at some point in the daisy, the loop of webbing itself is sewn together with 6 to 8 bar tacks (full-strength).
Anyway, I was told that if I were to somehow take a fall that broke through the three bar tacks on a loop, even if it were to continue, it would eventually come to the end and stop.
Of course, if you're taking falls that break through 3 bar tacks of sewn nylon, you're probably worrying more about the structural integrity of your spine than the daisy.
And I'm sorry if my post didn't make any sense either. For that, I have no excuse.
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papounet
May 8, 2006, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: Or you can have an adjustable tie in with no specialty gear at all
I have seen it done with 1.5m of dynamic rope and a asymtric knot (don't know its english name, could have been a blake's hitch).
basically the asymetric autoblock knot slides easily when it is held perpendicular to the rope conectign you to the anchor, but under tension, it "kinks" more the rope and thus grabs better.
The disadvanatge of this setup is that the shortest lentgh is half of the total because the prussik ends up against the belay loop.
although tech cord is held by some to be THE material to use to sling anything but the dog, I would be weary of relying on a slippery and meltable material prussiking against itself
If you are not into learning new knots, the simplest is a clovehitch on the biner and a not too tight double-half-fisherman knot on the free end around the working length of the rope.
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bill413
May 8, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: It was my understanding that when you clip a daisy short, since there are only three bar tacks (well, usually three) holding each loop, they're not full-strength. However, at some point in the daisy, the loop of webbing itself is sewn together with 6 to 8 bar tacks (full-strength). Anyway, I was told that if I were to somehow take a fall that broke through the three bar tacks on a loop, even if it were to continue, it would eventually come to the end and stop.
Also, the other, major danger, that the other threads have discussed is the problem of not really being clipped into the full strength loop, but only having the magicians trick clip. (Presto - the material passes thru a seemingly solid biner!)
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hosh
May 8, 2006, 7:25 PM
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PAS? I sure like mine. And what ever happened to "cow-tails"? (a girth-hitched shoulder-length sling... They work plenty good and are FULL strength...) Just wondering why daisy chains are such popular "anchor" peices when there are such good alternatives out there...
hosh.
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j_ung
May 8, 2006, 7:41 PM
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Only the climbing rope eliminates the possibility of becoming a human-funkness-device.
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bill413
May 8, 2006, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: Only the climbing rope eliminates the possibility of becoming a human-funkness-device.
Is two inches between me & the master clip in point enough? 1 foot?
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papounet
May 8, 2006, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Only the climbing rope eliminates the possibility of becoming a human-funkness-device. I've seen this statement (or it's functional equivalent) in numerous places. But, I have a question about it....how much rope? Is two inches between me & the master clip in point enough? 1 foot?
any length will do, because it is dynamic.
If you have 2 inches between you and the anchor, then the worst case for you if you climb above the anchor and then fall on it is a 4 inch fall on 2 inch dynamic rope : fff 2.
if you have 2 meters dynamic attachement and you climb above the anchor and fall on it, then 4m/2m -> ff 2.
in both cases the rope does it job, you aren't hurt, the anchor is safe
if you climb 20 cm above the anchor with a non strechable link (spectra, dynema, tech cord or chain links), then falling on it will be very painful for you and could endanger the anchor
if you climb 60 cm (a standard sling length) above the anchor with a such non-energy absorbing connection, then the fall will probably result in broken sling and/or broken biner and/or broken back.
'nylon would probably not break)
(research via ferrata accidents for more knowledge of falls on static links)
Now if you are considering anchor failure which will drop the belayer a certain distance or catching a leader fall on you,
the longer the connection from you to the anchor, the more energy absortion possible.
(if you were connected with 2 inches of dynamic rope to the upper bolt of a sport route and this bolt was to fail dropping you the 10 inch steel chain length onto the second bolt, your puny 2 inches would not do a lot).
From this reasoning, you may want to adopt a reasonable minimum length of dynamic rope between you and your anchor as a way to avoid being remembered as the man who got funked to death
(for similar reason, the poorer the anchor, the more slack you give the climber just leaving the anchor till he clips next protection point)
So, in the end, size matters :lol:
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bill413
May 8, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Only the climbing rope eliminates the possibility of becoming a human-funkness-device. I've seen this statement (or it's functional equivalent) in numerous places. But, I have a question about it....how much rope? Is two inches between me & the master clip in point enough? 1 foot? any length will do, because it is dynamic. If you have 2 inches between you and the anchor, then the worst case for you if you climb above the anchor and then fall on it is a 4 inch fall on 2 inch dynamic rope : fff 2.
In reply to: Now if you are considering anchor failure which will drop the belayer a certain distance or catching a leader fall on you, the longer the connection from you to the anchor, the more energy absortion possible. (if you were connected with 2 inches of dynamic rope to the upper bolt of a sport route and this bolt was to fail dropping you the 10 inch steel chain length onto the second bolt, your puny 2 inches would not do a lot).
In reply to: From this reasoning, you may want to adopt a reasonable minimum length of dynamic rope between you and your anchor as a way to avoid being remembered as the man who got funked to death
In reply to: So, in the end, size matters :lol: |
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