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theangrybuddhist
Jul 11, 2006, 9:37 PM
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Hi Folks,
I just moved out to the Bay Area from Colorado this weekend and had a chance to go out to an East Bay climbing gym today. I wasn't allowed to lead climb, not even allowed to take the lead test because during my belay test:
Although I correctly tied in, I did not explicitly say "Thread the rope through the leg loops and the waist."
So they gave me a day pass to top rope belay (thank you) but they would not even consider letting me lead climb (I could care less if they let me lead belay today). It's all internalized at this point and I could do it a hundred times in a row, look at someone else's and tell you if it was right or wrong (this would be a good test, show a few different mock harnesses with one or two incorrect and have someone tell what is wrong), and generally be safe but I can't recite from memory a chapter from "How to Rock Climb" that I read 4 years ago.
My question is, was she off base? I understand there is a liability issue but I've taken at least 5 different gyms' lead tests and none of them were anything like this one. She said to me, I understand you can climb indoors but this is different. Wtf, I've spent just as much time climbing indoors as climbing outdoors.
Anyway, just wanted to vent and other than the partners I climbed with today, don't know any climbers out here to vent to.
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caughtinside
Jul 11, 2006, 9:52 PM
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They're weird about stuff at the touchstone gyms. They make you say out loud things you normally do automatically.
They asked me how I was sure I tied my figure eight correctly. I gave them the blank look. "Uhhh, it looks like an eight?" The acne faced teenager made me count different strands of the knot! WTF.
There are some 'magic answers' that they seem to have to hear. Doesn't matter if you know what you are doing or not.
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climberboy193838
Jul 11, 2006, 10:35 PM
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Chances are, you know more than they do. They're probably underpaid rich kids who parents cut them off and they only accept certain answers like a robot. its attack of the GYM RAT ROBOTS :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!
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kmef78
Jul 11, 2006, 10:43 PM
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I agree its lame for those of us who are veteran climbers. I think saying things out loud to those of us who climb on a daily bases may only help with complacancy but then having your partner check ya before you go up is suppose to help with that. I think for new climbers its not a bad idea. Helps to make sure things are good. It should be for the most part obvious between soembody new and somebody who isnt. Something that should have been noticed when you tied in with out having to think about it.
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fearofheights
Jul 11, 2006, 11:41 PM
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I bet the issue was that they wanted you know the importantance of tying in through 2 strong points. My friend was denied a permanent pass for the same thing at Mission Cliffs- he had tied in correctly but told the test guy that he was tying in to 2 points, not 2 strong points.
Yeah, maybe it's misdirected caution. That said, I've seen some "qualified" leaders do some pretty dumb stuff at the gym...
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zacrobinson
Jul 11, 2006, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: They asked me how I was sure I tied my figure eight correctly. I gave them the blank look. "Uhhh, it looks like an eight?" The acne faced teenager made me count different strands of the knot! WTF.
Having worked at a rockwall I know what it is like to go through some of these belay tests. It is easy to fail noobs when it is clear that they should fail, but it is very hard to tell someone who has climbed for 20 years and can identify a properly tied figure 8 from someone who just got a 15 minute lesson from a buddy in the parking lot and is guessing their way though the test.
Most gyms have a few 'key points' that they emphasize while teaching belay lessons. i.e. count the pairs of ropes in the figure 8 knot, 3 things in your belay biner (ATC, rope and harness) etc etc. This unfortunately leads to expectations of hearing these phrases from anyone on a skills check.
Just go back tomorrow and walk them through the skills check like they are idiots. Try not to have too much sarcasm in your voice while you do it. :wink:
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lambone
Jul 12, 2006, 4:17 PM
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when going through the belay check I ask people what they need to double check. the rope going through both points on the harness is a key double check. anyone belaying should know that. sometime I need to prompt them by saying "what else do you need to check about the rope that isn't the knot..."
if they did pass you on the test, and you have lead experience then they should have allowed you to take the lead check also. Or they should have failed you on the belay check (too harsh imho). but by passing you on one thing and shutting you down on another it makes them seem confused and unprofessional.
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theangrybuddhist
Jul 12, 2006, 7:32 PM
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It's not that I'd disagree that it is key - it's just that I would notice it visually but not necessarily think to mention it (but I will now). I can see where someone who does this every day would think that it is important to mention - I just didn't even think about it, it seems like a given. Mostly, I just couldn't believe someone failed me on something that I do all the time (would be like getting failed at the DMV for not explicitly saying I am turning my turn signal on and just turning it on).
I'll probably go back later this week (it's so nice outside I may try to get out outdoors instead) and be overly thorough.
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crazyfingers
Jul 13, 2006, 4:29 AM
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The guy lives in CO for 7 years and doesn't post once... moves to the bay area and posts twice in the same thread ;) We'll miss you out here, brother. Ask Kimeremy about Animal Magnatism in Boulder Canyon... got our asses kicked (sustained 11c, whimper).
TO ALL BAY AREA FOLKS: Climb with this guy. He's a great partner. Safe, smart and up for about anything. Good people.
Side note: If you don't climb with him, eat with him... you will be in awe of his ability to eat 7-10 bananas or dates a whole watermellon and three quarts of strawberries in one sitting. Couldn't resist...
KT
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kriso9tails
Jul 15, 2006, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: My question is, was she off base? I understand there is a liability issue but I've taken at least 5 different gyms' lead tests and none of them were anything like this one. She said to me, I understand you can climb indoors but this is different. Wtf, I've spent just as much time climbing indoors as climbing outdoors.
Without having even been there I'm going to say yes. I understand the complications with doing these tests, believe me I do, but the people giving these tests need to understand that there's a vast world of climbing oustide of their little gym that doesn't do things exactly the same way. Yes, they need to make sure your belaying and safety technique falls in line with their gym's policy, but they also need to practice a little common sense.
I've gone through so many of these tests, it gets my blood hot just thinking about some of them.
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OMJAHMAN
May 4, 2008, 8:26 AM
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touchstone can suck my balls. Did you ever pass the test? Any pointers i've failed 2 times this week.
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vegastradguy
May 4, 2008, 12:12 PM
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[quote "caughtinside"]They're weird about stuff at the touchstone gyms. They make you say out loud things you normally do automatically.
They asked me how I was sure I tied my figure eight correctly. I gave them the blank look. "Uhhh, it looks like an eight?" The acne faced teenager made me count different strands of the knot! WTF.
There are some 'magic answers' that they seem to have to hear. Doesn't matter if you know what you are doing or not.[/quote]
they did that shit to me at Planite Granite-- i almost failed my tie in test. i've been climbing for 6 years and i have never heard of the '5 pairs of parallel strands' way of checking the knot. the really nice thing about the fig-8 knot is that its the one climbing knot that tells you what its supposed to look like assuming you can count to 10.....
sounds like a really good thing that i didnt bother with the belay test at Touchstone....
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j_ung
May 4, 2008, 12:26 PM
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I've been to a lot of gyms, worked at a few and even managed a couple, and in all that time, if there's one thing I've learned about skills tests, it's that bitching about them gets you nothing. If I've learned two things, then the second is to ask, before the test begins, what is expected of me to pass.
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dagibbs
May 6, 2008, 7:47 PM
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I've belay tested/checked at about 17 gyms, now. It varies from gym to gym. I've had some that were really tight-assed about it, and others where they seemed pretty casual -- I assume that casualness was (at least to some extent) because I arrived with my own gear (rather than renting) and appeared to know what I'm doing.
Most of the times, when the person has been hard-assed about something, they've usually done it with an apology about it "being the rules", not their personal choice.
I've been at gyms where the only choice for a T-R belay was their floor-anchored gri-gris, and you had to use a gri-gri for lead belays as well to a gym where people where belaying with a Munter hitch.
Some gyms charge you for a lesson if don't know hwo to belay, some give free lessons. Some charge you for the belay check, some don't -- but do charge if you need the lesson.
It varies all over the map.
I think a lot of the variance, though, has to do with how their insurance policy is written and what it specifies. I know my local gym gives free belay lessons because then nobody has to do the 15-minutes in the parking lot with a buddy, and look ok, but maybe not get it right.
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dynosore
May 6, 2008, 8:44 PM
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My local gym had a brand-newbian high schooler working the wall one night. It's a small gym and she's the only "instructor" there this particular evening. She walks over to me, very concerned, and says "I don't think that is made to belay with? I think you're supposed to use one of these". She holds up an ATC. The item in question? The properly threaded Grigri I was about to use....I gave her a lesson in how it works.
(This post was edited by dynosore on May 6, 2008, 8:44 PM)
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IclimbNAKED
Jun 28, 2008, 7:52 AM
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See, I learned to climb at a gym and I taught a friend of mine rope safety so that he could avoid the course. So I'm fairly used to being able to voice what I do even if it makes me sound like I'm talking to someone who's never heard of climbing rock. The funny thing is that this friend was only granted a conditional pass and had to be retested when the people at the gym figured out that I had taught him. Regardless of the fact that he did everything to perfection and used an ATC confidently with little practice.
Sometimes gyms can be really tightassed about some things that climbers take to be rather self-evident. I suppose next time you go in just treat the person presiding over your examination like a dunce and explain everything you do. At the end apologize if you seemed a little over the top, but give the old "better safe than sorry!"
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kletter1mann
Jun 28, 2008, 7:01 PM
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IclimbNAKED wrote: See, I learned to climb at a gym and I taught a friend of mine rope safety so that he could avoid the course. <<<<snip>>>> The funny thing is that this friend was only granted a conditional pass and had to be retested when the people at the gym figured out that I had taught him. <<<<snip>>>> Sometimes gyms can be really tightassed about some things that climbers take to be rather self-evident. I suppose next time you go in just treat the person presiding over your examination like a dunce and explain everything you do. At the end apologize if you seemed a little over the top, but give the old "better safe than sorry!"
We'd do exactly the same unless we knew you and your experience level very well. Gyms have seen it all. We constantly catch people doing totally sketchy stuff cause they learned from a pal who, as it turns out, had no clue what they were doing - but had no idea how clueless and inexperienced they were. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this applies to you, just that this scenario happens all the time. And it happens at every gym I've talked to. People claim they've been climbing for years but never saw an ATC. We catch people with harnesses half unbuckled that managed to remember to cross-check for the test and promptly forgot. You can be sure that every stupid rule or procedure is there cause at some point there was some kind of problem that the gym want to avoid.
So, if you're an experienced gym climber, give gyms some slack. You may know what you're doing, but if you're new to a gym they have no way of knowing you do, and they hear bullshit every hour of every day. So you're right, do go over the top with with clarity. But be careful treating anybody like a dunce, you may be wrong and it can backfire.
-Dave
http://www.climbrockclub.com
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eastvillage
Jun 28, 2008, 7:14 PM
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The lesson is, don't "climb" in gyms.
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jermanimal
Jul 1, 2008, 4:54 PM
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It would be appropriate to ask for a printed document that outlines their belay and lead tests. They should list what is required to pass and what will qualify as a fail.
If they have a subjective system, make them tell you what you are expected to do to pass.
Look at it like a business and if you don't get the service you want, talk to a manger and then owner if you have to.
It would be more then appropriate to call out the person giving the test as not being qualified to give the test. Ask them before hand what their qualifications are.
I had to take a belay class, then wait a week and take the test. I then had to wait 5 months to take the lead class, then a week to take that test. Being totally green at my first belay class, I was annoyed but after getting into it and then moving on to lead climbing, now I would say it was a more then reasonable policy.
I think the question for a veteran heading to a new gym is "ok, what game do I need to play here to get to climb?" keeping in mind that you don't really have a I know wtf I am doing badge.
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CaptainPolution
Jul 8, 2008, 7:18 AM
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[quote "caughtinside"]They're weird about stuff at the touchstone gyms. They make you say out loud things you normally do automatically.
They asked me how I was sure I tied my figure eight correctly. I gave them the blank look. "Uhhh, it looks like an eight?" The acne faced teenager made me count different strands of the knot! WTF.
There are some 'magic answers' that they seem to have to hear. Doesn't matter if you know what you are doing or not.[/quote]
you should be checking those points when you climb outside and inside. it's easy to fuck shit up when you arent paying attention(at least full attention). I think they ask for the pairs of rope in the 8 because a lot of n00b gym ppl know how to tie it right but wont notice if they fuck up. standard shiet mayne. although counting pairs of rope in your 8 is bullshit for people who know their stuff
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 8, 2008, 9:38 PM
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Bullshit? Counting the pairs, yes. Giving a quick check, as you said, no. The point of checking for parallel strands is to make as sure as possible that you have no crossed lines in your figure 8 as this changes your knot noticeably.
(This post was edited by IclimbNAKED on Jul 8, 2008, 9:39 PM)
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