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sky7high
Jul 29, 2006, 6:16 AM
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Hey, I want to start trad, and thought it would be a good idea to start placing pro on 4th class terrain for safety and peace of mind. that way, you can lay back to test your placement and the chances of falling are almost none (I can sport climb and I have been "climbing" 4th class since my first trip to the great outdoors.)
I would like to know what do experienced trad guys think.
PD. if there's a thread on this, please direct me to it, I did a search but found nothing.
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off_route
Jul 29, 2006, 8:06 AM
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You can place pro anywhere for practice, but one potential problem with pacing pro on 4th class climbs is that they're often riddled with ledges. If trad leading for the first time spooks you and you do take a fall you will likely end up on a ledge long before your rope slack is taken up. So you probably won't die but you'll be broken.
If you have some folks that know your local area ask them where you can find an easy grade climb (for you) that is steep and has great protection options. I was looking at a 5.6 lead the other day but it had NO protection options. I passed. I'd much rather run up a 5.whatever that I could sew up until I ran out of gear. Good practice and plenty safe.
Off_Route
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oldrnotboldr
Jul 29, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Find an easy class 5 single pitch route and run a top rope. Then practice placing pro, etc. while on top rope. If you screw and fly, you still won't go anyplace and risk serious injury.
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grampacharlie
Jul 29, 2006, 4:31 PM
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I agree with oldrnotboldr, mock leading on top rope is one of the best ways to simulate leading on trad, but I would add one thing. Clipa tag line into the gear you're placing to se how said peices are placed. (will they walk, pop out, or get wedged because of rope movement) This will help you recognise what peices need to be extended, and how clipping each peice works. (for me at least, it is easier to misstakenly back clip trad gear than bolts.)
Hope this helps.
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stymingersfink
Jul 29, 2006, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: here"]
Place every piece of gear you've got while standing on the ground. Clip into each one with a daisy and bounce test it, as if you were aid climbing. Build anchors of every type imaginable, and test them for directionality and durability.
Set up a top rope with a bomb-proof anchor, place your gear, and fall on the gear. Preferrably done on a steep route which will allow clean falls. Learn which placements you can fall on safely. Learn which placements you should not fall on. Learn how to clean the gear you've placed.
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krusher4
Jul 29, 2006, 7:45 PM
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I have simu-climbed with gear on 4th class, make me feel a little safer.
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rockscaler2
Jul 30, 2006, 11:37 PM
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Sounds kinda like a running belay that you're setting up, 4th class climbing doesn't really need pro and it's not vertical in anyway so you can't really test your pieces/placements..... Practice on some 5.0-5.3's dude and you should have no problem unless a fear sets in....... :roll: or set up a mock lead.
Joey
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rock_junkie
Jul 31, 2006, 12:22 AM
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Either man up and just lead something 5th (above 5.5. Who the hell can tell the difference between 4th and low 5th) class or do some mock leading while on TR.
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fjclimbsrocks
Jul 31, 2006, 1:48 AM
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I think practicing trad leads on fourth class is a great way to start. You will be able to get lots of practice placing gear, learning about rope drag, and setting gear anchors while enjoying yourself and not getting in over your head. There isn't anything wrong with the other ideas about practicing on toprope or leading something well within your limit, but I don't think there is any reason to push yourself if you're not ready. Try a few 4th class leads if you want, then move on to toprope leads and easy leads. I applaud your deliberate approach to a new style of climbing, and I wish you luck.
~Jared
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gyngve
Jul 31, 2006, 2:23 AM
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4th-class often means "if it had better pro / wasn't so chossy, it would be 5th-class." Especially if rated by Beckey.
When placing pro on 4th-class, the goal is not to protect the ledge-fall but to protect the death-fall. Practice placing gear on terrain you're where you're not going to fall or go aiding. Find a mentor/course/guide (study their placements, have them evaluate yours).
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patto
Jul 31, 2006, 9:43 AM
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Ditto, you can place pro wherever you feel like it to improve your safety.
I sometimes place pro on my way to work, after all you can never be too careful. Likewise If I am out late at night in a bad area, placing pro regularly can help keep you safe from muggings.
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krusher4
Jul 31, 2006, 12:48 PM
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I'm not placing pro every ten feet, just before "committing" see: scary exposure, moves In boots. I tend to feel a little insecure.
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devkrev
Aug 2, 2006, 12:41 PM
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I find the best practice for placing pro to be standing on the ground where you can heave and jump and torque every placement, without having to deal with "the rest of it"
You don't even need a rope or partner for this.
dev
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paulraphael
Aug 4, 2006, 1:17 AM
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In reply to: Find a mentor/course/guide (study their placements, have them evaluate yours).
Even if you don't have someone you consider a mentor, any time you're climbing with someone better than you (which should be all the time if you're a new leader) you can learn.
when you're following, examine their placements and how they ran the rope.
and when you're leading, make sure you get feedback from them on your placements and on everything else. make sure they yell at you any time you hook the rope behind your leg ... that kind of thing.
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braaaaaaaadley
Aug 4, 2006, 1:56 AM
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I don't think that fourth class leading is the way to learn how to trad climb. I think that you should take these steps instead:
1) Read John Long's anchor books to get a feel for placing gear. Freedom of the hills is another great source on the subject.
2) Walk along a cliff and practice placing gear on the ground to get a feel for how the gear works and how it does not work. Here you can learn what placements are bombproof from your mentor (learning trad without a mentor is like learning to build bombs with no prior expierence... its not smart or safe). Remember that just loading a piece will not prove that a placement will hold a fall (falling on a piece will generate a lot more force than just pulling or jerking on it).
3) Practice making anchors also from the ground and have your mentor critique these placements.
4) Pick a vertical ~5.4 climb and climb it several times to get used to it. This climb should have no ledges so you don't get hurt when you fall half way up the climb. Then gear up and lead it having your mentor follow you up checking and critiquing your placements as he goes making sure to explain his reasoning.
Eventually after you lead over and over again then you will become comfortable with the gear and procedures involved in leading and consequently you will be able to lead trad safely with your non-leader friends.
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flying_k
Aug 4, 2006, 2:12 AM
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[quote="off_route"]You can place pro anywhere for practice, but one potential problem with pacing pro on 4th class climbs is that they're often riddled with ledges. If trad leading for the first time spooks you and you do take a fall you will likely end up on a ledge long before your rope slack is taken up. So you probably won't die but you'll be broken.
This happened to me last month on the last pitch of white maidens
apron at Tahquitz I got off route and run out when I fell while down climbing. I took a sixty foot whipper but decked on my feet on a ledge 10 to 20 feet below were I came off. I mad a lot of mistakes one that did not occur to me at the time was I could have aided through the crux instead of down climbing. I could have stopped short of the off rout crux and built an anchor and brought up my more experienced partner who also had the guide book.
Anyway if it had all been vertical I would have had a second chance.
instead I got to rap out 600ft with a broken leg(tibia plateau).
Be careful not to do like me and start leading to soon. If some one would have told me I was way to new to be leading I would have listened. I know better now.
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deadhorse
Aug 4, 2006, 3:03 AM
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Registered: Jun 26, 2006
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yeah this question has crossed my mind as well - because although i'm a relatively new climber, i'm anxious to get away from TR. But is trad the first step past? or is sport?
The way it looks to me it should be trad even though it is more dangerous and more complicated, because sport routes seem to be ALWAYS very difficult?
Where i live bolting is illegal, but the few bolted routes there are are .12's and .13's I feel like I could probably climb a .7 that was bolted, but have no idea what i could do if i had to place pro.
ohhh, my riddled life.
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gekk084
Aug 5, 2006, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: i'm a relatively new climber, i'm anxious to get away from TR. But is trad the first step past? or is sport?... ohhh, my riddled life.
Hope this is the worst dilemma you have to face this year, mate! Here's my $0.02, which is essentially a summary of some good advice above.
Setting pro on class 4 is taking optimal advantage of safe opportunities, however, I believe solid leading comes from experience, which comes from lots of rock time.
IMHO the best way to learn to lead is to follow-TR, Trad, Sport - it doesn't matter as long as it is real rock. Ratings are relative to a climber's size, strength and experience, so focus on learning how to climb, for real, not on a contrived route in a gym. TR allows you to challenge your abilities, try new techniques, hone your skills; following Trad teaches you how to read a rock, place pro, hold stance - problem-solving in motion - the essence of climbing. Following a sport climb will give you more face time, great for footwork, more time to think about "what would I do if this bolt weren't here," "how might I approach this differently if I were on lead" and other philosophical conundrums, while on the safety of a good belay.
If your abilities are intermediate (5.9 or less) focus on technique before leading and don't try to lead anything above the level you climb, preferably a couple of grades below.
I prefer to start people on TR, having them place as much pro as they can fit into a crack with an experienced leader (often me) following to check and critique their placement . Eventually I might put them on a tag line and have them "think lead", checking their own pro as they go up, or come down, or just lead some short, easy pitches, with fun stuff and critiques in between. I only do this with people I know, who have a fair amount of rock time, build great anchors and have both good technique and rock sense. I violated this sequence only once and my buddy has a long convalescence to show for it, due to my negligence. :(
Enjoy the rock, enjoy the climb, if you're too anxious to lead and don't have the basics you're missing the point. :wink:
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mtnmia
Aug 13, 2006, 4:55 PM
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All great comments!!!
There is nothing wrong with placing pro for "death protection" in 4th class. Many accidents, often fatal, have happen on easy terrain.
Now with that said, I agree with all of the above, though I have one addition. Take a class from the real pros! Many communities offer rock climbing classes which incude trad workshops. At our local community college (CMC in Colorado) a 3-day crack/trad/multipitch class is less than $50. Well worth it!!
All too often I have watched new trad leaders, who have learned from a friend, who learned from a friend, who.... and I have witnessed some scary moments that could have been prevented. There is nothing wrong with questioning your friends knowledge. Remember it is your life on the line.
Get lots of milage placing and taking gear out before leaving the ground, and most importantly, know how to build safe anchors!
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