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steelfoot
Aug 27, 2006, 11:15 PM
Post #76 of 82
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Registered: Apr 21, 2004
Posts: 35
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Goooood grief.....Boondock Saint, just give the book back, get your money back, and shut up! At this point, anything you publish yourself will be a rip off anyway. You can't possibly climb enough in So. Ill in the next three years to have the knowlegde Eric (and notice I use his real name because he's a real man not afraid and hiding behind his username) has gained and published based on his many years of experience.
Let me tell you a little story. My wife and I were in Jackson Falls about 7 years ago and met these older guys (late 40's) who lived in Northern Illinois and Souther Wisconsin. They went to school at SIU in the late seventies and climbed with some of the pioneers of climbing. Guess whos name they mentioned as being of the most ambitous and upcoming of climbers in the area. That's right...Eric Ulner. He knows the areas like the back of his hand and has paid his dues.
Any idiot can take pictures, draw lines, and make a book....only an expert can express in words what is needed to successfully guide someone through a crag. And on top of that, he's a certified rock guide through AMGA. "Boondock Saint" can you say that?
Eric's paid his dues and is the only person to come forward and produce the last three guides to the area. My hat goes off to Eric and the work he's done.
I hope to see everyone, including Boondock Saint and Helios, at the gathering in October.
Michael Pruett
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gb3985
Aug 28, 2006, 2:17 AM
Post #77 of 82
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Registered: Jul 15, 2006
Posts: 47
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[quote="ericulner"] Time and labor is the biggest expense. The 7+ months I took unpaid leave from my full-time job in order to finish the guidebook cost more than the five-digit loan I took out from the bank to pay for printing.
I sure benifited from you taking all that time off work.More OT for Me!!!!!!
Great response Eric I saw this post too and ment to say something to you about it but obviously you found it!!!
Gary B
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ericulner
Sep 1, 2006, 1:44 PM
Post #78 of 82
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Registered: Jun 3, 2003
Posts: 55
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Steelfoot wrote, "...he's a certified rock guide through AMGA. "Boondock Saint" can you say that?"
Oops Michael, I can't let that slide by. Yes, I am AMGA trained. I did complete all of AMGA's rock guide training thru advanced in '94 & '95, and was prepared to take their certification exam, but didn't. Just simply too expensive. AMGA's training is top notch, and I'd recommend them to anyone interested in professional guiding. They also have a requirement that I couldn't quite get interested enough in to complete- the weeklong Wilderness First Responder class = another week of lost wages and travel expenses. As you know, I guide here at my place- not a distant "wilderness type" area. An ALS ambulance service is 15-20 minutes away. I've also 13 years of experience for the county ambulance service in Carbondale. I'm an Intermediate EMT at an ALS service. I have "first responder" capacity with medical control on my property where I guide. That still doesn't allow for a "pass" with the AMGA's med requirements. Oh well.
Anyway, I see that Boondock has not responded to my post. Nor has he contacted me privately to set up his book return. Perhaps a change of heart, or opinion? Boondock, I really hold no ill will against you. I'm used to sticking my neck out publicly by writing the local guide since '93, and therefore also used to taking shots by folks who don't care for my work. Took the same type of shots by people who didn't like it when Jim Thurmond, Alan Carrier, and I started bolting (primarily rap style) at Jackson Falls, Cedar Bluff, & Draper's Bluff in 1986. I maybe got a little bummed to see this thread, but it's really no biggie. Over the years, some folks who've thrown barbs at me have later gotten to know me, retracted, and then even became a friend. So just to let you know, I can accept an apology if you have one.
All the Best,
Eric
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helios
Sep 5, 2006, 7:41 AM
Post #79 of 82
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Registered: Oct 3, 2005
Posts: 56
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Tim,
First of all, did you read my posts before replying or did you just read Eric's response and make assumptions of what my post was about?
The statement you made about hoping to see Boondock_Saint and Helios at the gathering? Kinda sounds like there's hope for me to see the light and change my ways. Me and Boondock, just two peas in a pod!
One problem: I don't agree with him. Reread my posts. Unlike BS and yourself, I never wanted to be in a fight against Eric. When BS and I were discussing this thing privately before he decided to drop the bomb, I thought it would be a fun project to make a guide for ourselves (i.e. not for distribution). Of course knowing full well I'd never really want to follow it through. BS had other plans I guess. I felt inclined to post that my issues with the book don't warrant a new edition, and he should back off. Although I guess I wasn't explicit enough.
I wrote Eric about my feelings about all this and hope to clear things up between he and I. There's hope for me yet! I don't want to post to the thread and bump it. But thanks to your associating me with BS, now people will be replying to Boondock and Helios. If they do, then I'll post again. But I'm just hoping this thing dies.
Oh, and just so you know, I'm pretty upset with BS about all this.
Keith
PS I hope you don't go back to your fightin' ways and still show up at the gathering too :lol:
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boondock_saint
Sep 5, 2006, 1:07 PM
Post #80 of 82
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Registered: Aug 6, 2005
Posts: 2157
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As much as I swore to myself that I would not respond to this thread, I think I have to now since Eric is not getting my PMs.
Eric, I sent you a PM on August 28 - I'm not sure why you didn't get it, it's still sitting in my outbox. It is in fact an apology for attacking you and your book. A lot of those attacks came as a byproduct of responding to posts like the most recent one by steelfoot. You want "someone who knows the routes like the back of his hand" well so do I. And in fact he already did write one. I hope you didn't think I intended to take credit for writing the book because that's pretty @#^%ing stupid. I just think the book could profit from a more professional design.
It was pretty irresponsible on my part, to make thread out of an incomplete thought. As helios said it was discussed in private but I made a thread so my apologies to all those who got involved.
So in closing, please let this thread die, since it's brought nothing but headaches to anyone who participated in it. There is nothing else that needs to be said about this topic.
Thanks.
And in the future, if I have something to share I will contact Eric directly.
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PillBox
Nov 17, 2006, 3:54 AM
Post #81 of 82
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Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 4
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ACTUALLY. When we did the new Red Rocks guidebook we used the old guidebooks to see where all the routes were, but we hiked every single canyon from rim to rim looking for all known and unknown routes-rewriting route descriptions and hiking directions. We've climbed a ton of them! And we interviewed around 20 people, mostly first ascensionists and gave copies of the book to them for review and correction before printing it. Not sure if you've really compared the books side by side. Hard to describe a left facing corner in any other way than a left facing corner. ya know...
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akornylak
Aug 25, 2009, 1:25 PM
Post #82 of 82
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Registered: Jul 9, 2003
Posts: 251
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Well said Eric.
I started climbing around '92-'93, right when you first wrote your guide. Jackson Falls was one of the first areas I ever climbed at and I have fond memories of the place. Thanks!
A guidebook, beyond a list of descriptions and grades, is a history. When you write something down, it becomes fact for a lot of people. Whether you are posting a topo online or printing a book, that is something not to be taken lightly. Especially in the South, where much of the climbing is on private land or is available as a result of complicated and ongoing access agreements.
(This post was edited by akornylak on Aug 25, 2009, 1:51 PM)
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