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Partner rrrADAM


Nov 30, 2006, 5:58 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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re: validity of string theory:

I'm certainly not an expert, But I am very interested, and have researched it a bit.


I think Richard Feynman actually said it best in the 80's before he died:
Dr Feynman wrote:
I don't like that for anything that disagrees with an experiment, they cook up an explanation--a fix-up to say, "Well, it still might be true."

20 years later, and nothing has changed, just that they have 'cooked up' more excuses, as now M-Theory (basically a theory that unifies the 5 most prominant String Theroies) says there are 10^500 [that's a 1 with 500 zeros after it] different theories, as String Theory is background dependant, thus each one has a sollution for each background.



This should shed a little light on the problem...

The quotes below are from The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next, by Lee Smolin, in a chapter titled How Do You Fight Sociology?:

Summarizing what is seen among those in the String Theory community:
In reply to:
1. Tremendous self-confidence, leading to a sense of entitlement and of belonging to an elite community of experts.
2. An unusually monolithic community, with a strong sense of consensous, whether driven by the evidence or not, and an unusual uniformity of views on open questions. These views seem related to the existance of a hierachical structure in which the ideas of a few leaders dictate the viewpoint, strategy, and direction of the field.
3. In some cases, a sense of identification with the group, akin to identification with a religious faith or political platform.
4. A strong sense of the boundary between the group and other experts.
5. A disregard for and disinterest in the ideas, opinions, and work of experts who are not part of the group, and a preference for talking only with other members of the community.
6. A tendancy to interpret evidence optimistically, to believe exagerated or incorrect statements or results, and to disregard the possibility that the theory might be wrong. This is coupled with a tendancy to believe results are true because they are "widely believed", even if one has not checked (or even seen) the proof oneself.
7. A lack of appreciation for the extent to which a research program ought to involve risk.
page 284


Describing and using the term "Groupthink":
In reply to:
You can tell if a group suffers from groupthink if it:

1. Overestimates its invulnerability or high moral stance,
2. Collectively rationalizes the decisions it makes,
3. Demonizes or stereotypes outgroups and their leaders,
4. Has a culture of uniformity where individuals censor themselves and others so that the facade of the group unanimity is maintained, and
5. Contains members who take it upon themselves to protect the group leader by keeping information, theirs or other group members', from the leader.
page 287


It was, and still is, believed that String Theory was proved finite by Stanley Mandelstam in 1992, never verified, and taken as fact ever since by String Theorists... This year, Smolin verified that it was never proved... In fact Mandelstam replied to an email asking about this, in it he explained
In reply to:
that what he proved was that a certain kind of infinate term does not appear anywhere in the theory. But he told us that he had not actually proved the theroy itself was finite, because other kinds of infinate terms might appear.
page 281


(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 30, 2006, 6:10 AM)


Partner brent_e


Nov 30, 2006, 6:17 AM
Post #52 of 60 (656 views)
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Posts: 5111

Re: [rrradam] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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rrradam wrote:
re: validity of string theory:

I'm certainly not an expert, But I am very interested, and have researched it a bit.


I think Richard Feynman actually said it best in the 80's before he died:
Dr Feynman wrote:
I don't like that for anything that disagrees with an experiment, they cook up an explanation--a fix-up to say, "Well, it still might be true."

20 years later, and nothing has changed, just that they have 'cooked up' more excuses, as now M-Theory (basically a theory that unifies the 5 most prominant String Theroies) says there are 10^500 [that's a 1 with 500 zeros after it] different theories, as String Theory is background dependant, thus each one has a sollution for each background.



This should shed a little light on the problem...

The quotes below are from The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next, by Lee Smolin, in a chapter titled How Do You Fight Sociology?:

Summarizing what is seen among those in the String Theory community:
In reply to:
1. Tremendous self-confidence, leading to a sense of entitlement and of belonging to an elite community of experts.
2. An unusually monolithic community, with a strong sense of consensous, whether driven by the evidence or not, and an unusual uniformity of views on open questions. These views seem related to the existance of a hierachical structure in which the ideas of a few leaders dictate the viewpoint, strategy, and direction of the field.
3. In some cases, a sense of identification with the group, akin to identification with a religious faith or political platform.
4. A strong sense of the boundary between the group and other experts.
5. A disregard for and disinterest in the ideas, opinions, and work of experts who are not part of the group, and a preference for talking only with other members of the community.
6. A tendancy to interpret evidence optimistically, to believe exagerated or incorrect statements or results, and to disregard the possibility that the theory might be wrong. This is coupled with a tendancy to believe results are true because they are "widely believed", even if one has not checked (or even seen) the proof oneself.
7. A lack of appreciation for the extent to which a research program ought to involve risk.
page 284


Describing and using the term "Groupthink":
In reply to:
You can tell if a group suffers from groupthink if it:

1. Overestimates its invulnerability or high moral stance,
2. Collectively rationalizes the decisions it makes,
3. Demonizes or stereotypes outgroups and their leaders,
4. Has a culture of uniformity where individuals censor themselves and others so that the facade of the group unanimity is maintained, and
5. Contains members who take it upon themselves to protect the group leader by keeping information, theirs or other group members', from the leader.
page 287


It was, and still is, believed that String Theory was proved finite by Stanley Mandelstam in 1992, never verified, and taken as fact ever since by String Theorists... This year, Smolin verified that it was never proved... In fact Mandelstam replied to an email asking about this, in it he explained
In reply to:
that what he proved was that a certain kind of infinate term does not appear anywhere in the theory. But he told us that he had not actually proved the theroy itself was finite, because other kinds of infinate terms might appear.
page 281

man, funny that you say feynman as I just looked something up about him from another thread. That man was AMAZING. holy crap he did a lot.


interesting stuff on string theory. Some physicists call it a philosophical theory! lol


Smolin sounds kind of like an ass...but at least he's realistic!!!


Partner tradman


Nov 30, 2006, 9:08 AM
Post #53 of 60 (642 views)
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Posts: 7159

Re: [brent_e] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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Back to the OP again:

It's possible that metals do stick together in a vacuum, but i doubt it's for the reason stated in the linked article.

If we ignore some small physcial problems (like the fact that even the most precisely engineered metal surfaces are very far from flat), we're still left with one big issue: atoms in metals are bonded tightly together, which is what makes them hard.

Creating those bonds takes a lot of energy. That's part of how normal welding works. The fact that objects rarely stick together is little to do with protective coatings, and more to do with the fact that there's usually not enough energy around to form the necessary bonds between them - especially in a vacuum!

I asked my climbing partner, who's an engineer, about this last night. He said, simply, "if instant welding without huge amounts of electricity or flammable chemicals was possible, every building site would have a couple of guys with a pressure vessel instead of a couple of dozen guys with welding torches".

As I say, maybe metal things do stick in space. But I'm pretty sure it's not because their atoms spontaneously form bonds without any energy.


blondgecko
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Nov 30, 2006, 1:03 PM
Post #54 of 60 (638 views)
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Posts: 7666

Re: [tradman] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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tradman wrote:
Back to the OP again:

It's possible that metals do stick together in a vacuum, but i doubt it's for the reason stated in the linked article.

If we ignore some small physcial problems (like the fact that even the most precisely engineered metal surfaces are very far from flat), we're still left with one big issue: atoms in metals are bonded tightly together, which is what makes them hard.

Creating those bonds takes a lot of energy. That's part of how normal welding works. The fact that objects rarely stick together is little to do with protective coatings, and more to do with the fact that there's usually not enough energy around to form the necessary bonds between them - especially in a vacuum!

Actually, that's not quite right, I'm afraid. Welding involves adding energy to break some of the bonds in the two metals to be joined (i.e. melt them). This allows them to re-form across the join, a process that releases energy.

I'd say the problem is more likely in having atomically clean surfaces (I know painfully well how difficult this is to achieve), as well as contacting surface area, as you mentioned.


Partner tradman


Nov 30, 2006, 2:00 PM
Post #55 of 60 (636 views)
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Re: [blondgecko] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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Sorry, yes you're right, I didn't explain that very well.

There would have to be enough energy to break and reform the bonds for the weld to occur.

Just out of interest, is it actually possible to create a surface which is just one continuous surface of one type of atom? It sounds like it would be very difficult.


petsfed


Nov 30, 2006, 9:25 PM
Post #56 of 60 (627 views)
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Posts: 8599

Re: [tradman] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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I recall hearing about this phenomenon years ago. The basic premise was that if you had two perfectly smooth, perfectly flat hunks of 100% pure copper and you put them together face-to-face in a vacuum, not you, not your boss, not even God could tell them that they were still two distinct pieces of copper. As you'll note though, the conditions that are required to allow this to happen are basically impossible in the lab. The process that allows it, instantaneous microwelds, is the same process that creates friction. There must be some initial force that presses them together, but as it obvious in the case of friction, its not a large force.

To other matters:

Einstein's cosmological constant should not be confused with the modern cosmological constant. He postulated it because he didn't believe in an expanding universe. It has recently caught on again to deal with the non-constant expansion of the universe. But one should not be so naive as to think he was right all along. He was still wrong, he just used a solution to the perceived problem that turned out to be a solution for another problem.

String theory, as it stands, is rubbish. It has no experimentally unique predictions and just screams of the invent-a-particle contrived solutions it was formulated to avoid. And yet, inexplicably, it is at the forefront of modern physics. I think its allure is that it seems to offer the promise of GUF theory, but it never actually produces.


(This post was edited by petsfed on Nov 30, 2006, 9:40 PM)


Partner j_ung


Nov 30, 2006, 9:45 PM
Post #57 of 60 (619 views)
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690

Re: [rrradam] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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rrradam wrote:
This should shed a little light on the problem...

The quotes below are from The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next, by Lee Smolin, in a chapter titled How Do You Fight Sociology?:

Summarizing what is seen among those in the String Theory community:
In reply to:
1. Tremendous self-confidence, leading to a sense of entitlement and of belonging to an elite community of experts.
2. An unusually monolithic community, with a strong sense of consensous, whether driven by the evidence or not, and an unusual uniformity of views on open questions. These views seem related to the existance of a hierachical structure in which the ideas of a few leaders dictate the viewpoint, strategy, and direction of the field.
3. In some cases, a sense of identification with the group, akin to identification with a religious faith or political platform.
4. A strong sense of the boundary between the group and other experts.
5. A disregard for and disinterest in the ideas, opinions, and work of experts who are not part of the group, and a preference for talking only with other members of the community.
6. A tendancy to interpret evidence optimistically, to believe exagerated or incorrect statements or results, and to disregard the possibility that the theory might be wrong. This is coupled with a tendancy to believe results are true because they are "widely believed", even if one has not checked (or even seen) the proof oneself.
7. A lack of appreciation for the extent to which a research program ought to involve risk.
page 284

Hmmm... where have I seen such behavior recently? Hmmm... TongueTongueLaughLaugh


blondgecko
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Nov 30, 2006, 10:39 PM
Post #58 of 60 (613 views)
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Re: [tradman] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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tradman wrote:
Sorry, yes you're right, I didn't explain that very well.

There would have to be enough energy to break and reform the bonds for the weld to occur.

Just out of interest, is it actually possible to create a surface which is just one continuous surface of one type of atom? It sounds like it would be very difficult.

Graphite would be one example where it's relatively easy. Mica also gives atomically flat sheets, but there's a number of different elements involved. In both cases it's simply because of their crystal structure.

If you're talking about metals, then yup, it's very, very difficult over any appreciable area.


curt


Nov 30, 2006, 11:06 PM
Post #59 of 60 (611 views)
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Re: [blondgecko] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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blondgecko wrote:
tradman wrote:
Sorry, yes you're right, I didn't explain that very well.

There would have to be enough energy to break and reform the bonds for the weld to occur.

Just out of interest, is it actually possible to create a surface which is just one continuous surface of one type of atom? It sounds like it would be very difficult.

Graphite would be one example where it's relatively easy. Mica also gives atomically flat sheets, but there's a number of different elements involved. In both cases it's simply because of their crystal structure.

If you're talking about metals, then yup, it's very, very difficult over any appreciable area.

Many elements (and compounds) in their crystalline forms, have cleavage planes along which they can split along atomic planes. For example, in GaAs, the cleavage planes are the <110> and equivalent directions.

Curt


Partner rrrADAM


Dec 5, 2006, 6:56 AM
Post #60 of 60 (577 views)
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Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553

Re: [lagr01] Weird scientific fact I didn't know [In reply to]
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A ruler to measure the universe:
http://www.eurekalert.org/...5/dbnl-art051506.php

And its only 450 million light years long.

Note that that is about:
2,645,381,417,932,624,500,000 miles (give or take a couple inches Tongue)

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