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s2w
Dec 18, 2006, 12:15 AM
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Hi, long time listener, first time caller.
I was reading the endless sliding X post on the trad forum, and have a question related to this, but for sport climbing.
One of the key points made in that post (by John Long) is to always tie into the anchor with the climbing rope, and never with static material. This prevents "shock loading" (an ill-defined term at best) of the anchor/climber that would be caused by falling onto the anchor with only static material.
However, when cleaning the top of a single pitch sport route, I have always clipped in with two static slings girth hitched to my harness. Depending on my stance and distance from the bolts, there will sometimes be a decent amount of slack in the slings. The slack can be reduced by tying knots in the slings, but there still may be some slack in some cases, for example if I'm trying to unweight the same bolts that I'm trying to clean. Or if I'm just too lazy to tie knots; I admit that I do this sometimes.
Is there any concern about "shock loading" the anchor/climber in this case? The fall distance would not be that great at all, but the lack of any give in the system makes me wonder. It wouldn't take a very large fall to produce some "wrenching" forces.
Maybe I'm just overly paranoid, or this is only applicable to the forces seen in trad climbing, but I would like to know if others have had thoughts/experiences with this.
Thanks in advance.
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coastal_climber
Dec 18, 2006, 12:55 AM
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I use 2 daisy chains, and have never had any problems. If you say that you take any slack out with knots, why are you worried about taking a fall? How do you belay without hanging off of the anchor?
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gunkiemike
Dec 18, 2006, 2:41 AM
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s2w wrote: The slack can be reduced by tying knots in the slings, but there still may be some slack in some cases,
Shorten your slings with a "Figure 9" (AKA Figure 16) knot. That's like a Fig 8 but with an extra wrap or two. Keep it a bit loose. If you fall, the knot will tighten and this will soften the impact.
No, I don't have test results to verify or quantify this phenomenon. Just some first hand experience. Take it FWIW.
Or use nylon slings.
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jt512
Dec 18, 2006, 3:59 AM
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1. Sport anchors are normally bomber.
2. How can you fall while cleaning anchors?
3. Why would you ever bother to shorten the slings? Don't they keep the anchor within reach?
To the person who reasoned, "I've never had a problem": do you realize that if you had ever had a problem, that you would be dead now.
Jay
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aerodrift
Dec 18, 2006, 4:33 AM
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is this the newest sport now - taking gut wrenching falls onto slings on bomber anchors?
May I know what harnes you guys use ?
(This post was edited by aerodrift on Dec 18, 2006, 4:33 AM)
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s2w
Dec 18, 2006, 6:47 AM
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I didn't do a very good job explaining my question. Hope this is clearer.
When I reach the top of a sport climb, I pick the best stance to start cleaning the anchors. Often, this puts me in a position where there is slack in my two girth hitched slings after I've clipped them in. I.e., I am not hanging from the slings, but standing on footholds so the slings are not weighted. This makes it much easier to clean the top anchor, as my weight is not on the top bolts, which could make it difficult to unclip the anchor carabiners.
However, if I were to slip off my footholds, I would be taking a very short fall onto the anchors, but on static slings. One of the points from that other sliding X thread is that shock loading can occur in this situation, where the fall is being stopped by a system with virtually no give or flex.
Is this ever a concern? I'm only talking about a fall of a foot or two. I've never taken such a fall before but still would like to know if it is a potential problem.
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jt512
Dec 18, 2006, 7:47 AM
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s2w wrote: I didn't do a very good job explaining my question. Hope this is clearer. When I reach the top of a sport climb, I pick the best stance to start cleaning the anchors. Often, this puts me in a position where there is slack in my two girth hitched slings after I've clipped them in. I.e., I am not hanging from the slings, but standing on footholds so the slings are not weighted. This makes it much easier to clean the top anchor, as my weight is not on the top bolts, which could make it difficult to unclip the anchor carabiners. However, if I were to slip off my footholds, I would be taking a very short fall onto the anchors, but on static slings. One of the points from that other sliding X thread is that shock loading can occur in this situation, where the fall is being stopped by a system with virtually no give or flex. Is this ever a concern? I'm only talking about a fall of a foot or two. I've never taken such a fall before but still would like to know if it is a potential problem.
Yeah, a 2-foot fall onto a static tie-in would be quite serious. I suspect that you could break your back.
That said, I can't picture what the top of your sport routes must be like. I've never had the problem you describe.
And, that said, why don't you ditch the stupid slings anyway, and clip the anchors with regular draws, like a pro. The only real advantage of slings is that they are longer than QDs, making cleaning more comfortable when it's a reach from the stance to the anchors. But it sounds like you have the opposite problem.
Jay
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asuclimber
Dec 18, 2006, 8:16 AM
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Clip the biners on your slings in under whatever gear is already in the bolt hangers/anchor (quickdraws or cord). This way you should be able to sit/hang on your slings and clean the gear from the anchor and thread the rope. If the hangers are so small that you need to unweight them to clean the gear, just lean to one side. Leaning right will unweight your right sling, etc. I always just clean while hanging on my slings/daisies. I've never found this to be a problem.
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pro_alien
Dec 18, 2006, 9:42 AM
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In reply to: And, that said, why don't you ditch the stupid slings anyway, and clip the anchors with regular draws, like a pro.
Umm, when you reach the top of the climb, you might happen to be out of draws...
I use a short (60 cm) sling girth hitched to the harness (not the belay loop, gets too crowded). One sling is enough for single pitch (the rope gives redundancy).
Pascal
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bizarrodrinker
Dec 18, 2006, 5:02 PM
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pro_alien wrote: In reply to: And, that said, why don't you ditch the stupid slings anyway, and clip the anchors with regular draws, like a pro. Umm, when you reach the top of the climb, you might happen to be out of draws... I use a short (60 cm) sling girth hitched to the harness (not the belay loop, gets too crowded). One sling is enough for single pitch (the rope gives redundancy). Pascal
This is why you take enough for the route, 2 for the anchors and one extra.
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rgold
Dec 18, 2006, 5:23 PM
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Like many things in climbing, clipping in with slings is not ideal but is, in most cases, unlikely to cause problems, primarily because very few people actually fall in such circumstances.
Factor-two falls on high tensile-strength materials have broken the slings in tests with weights, and there is at least one known case in which a factor 2 fall on a draw broke a carabiner. (Remember it isn't just the bolts that are subject to failure.) If you are going to clip in with slings, it is best to make sure you are always hanging on the anchor.
As I mentioned in another thread, there seems to be a bit of movement in the canyoneering community to replace daisies and/or slings with a length of 6 or 7 mm dynamic cord, tied in a "Purcell prussik" configuration. If you are going to carry an over the shoulder sling anyway for the purpose of anchoring, it is worth considering using one made of 7mm cord.
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pro_alien
Dec 18, 2006, 5:49 PM
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Understood. Always loading the anchor is a good thing. Easier with a short sling.
This may be a good use for good portions of a damaged double / half rope...
Pascal
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microbarn
Dec 18, 2006, 6:59 PM
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rgold wrote: As I mentioned in another thread, there seems to be a bit of movement in the canyoneering community to replace daisies and/or slings with a length of 6 or 7 mm dynamic cord, tied in a "Purcell prussik" configuration. If you are going to carry an over the shoulder sling anyway for the purpose of anchoring, it is worth considering using one made of 7mm cord.
I see your reasoning for this recommendation. I was wondering if you have used a dynamic prussik as back up for a rap. If I am going to carry a prussik, I would like to use it as suggested and as a rap backup.
While in use for backing up a rap there will be stretch of the sling. Is the stretch enough to allow the backup to slide into the rap device? Typically, if the backup prussik is used during a rap, then something is going wrong. It will be receiving pretty high forces. I would appreciate hearing if this is a real concern.
Thanks
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pro_alien
Dec 18, 2006, 10:36 PM
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The Purcell Prusik is meant as an adjustable replacement to a fixed length sling, not as a replacement for the rap backup prusik.
For rap backup, use a separate short sling. Static sling is ok here. Too long and it will get sucked into the belay device.
Pascal
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jt512
Dec 18, 2006, 10:47 PM
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pro_alien wrote: In reply to: And, that said, why don't you ditch the stupid slings anyway, and clip the anchors with regular draws, like a pro. Umm, when you reach the top of the climb, you might happen to be out of draws...
Umm, what difference does it make whether you... Oh, never mind.
Jay
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pro_alien
Dec 18, 2006, 11:03 PM
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Umm, when you reach the top of the climb, you might happen to be out of draws... Been there, done that, and I did take the number of draws the topo called out...
Some people might use the term "overbolting". In Switzerland it is called "plaisir" (fun) climbing.
Pascal
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caughtinside
Dec 18, 2006, 11:11 PM
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classic.
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jt512
Dec 18, 2006, 11:42 PM
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caughtinside wrote: classic.
The logic is so fucked up beyond recognition, that it gives me a headache to try an compose a response.
I guess you can lead a n00b (or 2) to water, but some of them are just too stupid to drink.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 19, 2006, 12:26 AM)
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s2w
Dec 18, 2006, 11:42 PM
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jt512 wrote: Yeah, a 2-foot fall onto a static tie-in would be quite serious. I suspect that you could break your back. That said, I can't picture what the top of your sport routes must be like. I've never had the problem you describe. And, that said, why don't you ditch the stupid slings anyway, and clip the anchors with regular draws, like a pro. The only real advantage of slings is that they are longer than QDs, making cleaning more comfortable when it's a reach from the stance to the anchors. But it sounds like you have the opposite problem. Jay
The reason I started using slings is that on some climbs in my area, the anchor bolts are very high and much more convenient to clip with long slings. That messes me up for the other climbs where the bolts are lower, though.
I leave the slings girth hitched in all the time so I don't have to worry about doing and undoing them, and don't have to worry about taking draws with me. But it would be easy to leave them in and take two draws for clipping in also, like you said. Thanks for the beta and the entertaining attitude.
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s2w
Dec 18, 2006, 11:51 PM
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asuclimber wrote: Clip the biners on your slings in under whatever gear is already in the bolt hangers/anchor (quickdraws or cord). This way you should be able to sit/hang on your slings and clean the gear from the anchor and thread the rope. If the hangers are so small that you need to unweight them to clean the gear, just lean to one side. Leaning right will unweight your right sling, etc. I always just clean while hanging on my slings/daisies. I've never found this to be a problem.
Clipping underneath makes sense. Although sometimes it's hard to do this, if my anchor biner and the lower off gear are both clipped into the anchor bolts, which would make three things clipped into one bolt. But I don't always clip the anchor biner in directly to the bolt, so I'll try this sometime.
I'll try leaning side to side too, although I've found that can be tough depending on my stance. Appreciate the tips.
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s2w
Dec 19, 2006, 12:18 AM
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rgold wrote: Like many things in climbing, clipping in with slings is not ideal but is, in most cases, unlikely to cause problems, primarily because very few people actually fall in such circumstances. Factor-two falls on high tensile-strength materials have broken the slings in tests with weights, and there is at least one known case in which a factor 2 fall on a draw broke a carabiner. (Remember it isn't just the bolts that are subject to failure.) If you are going to clip in with slings, it is best to make sure you are always hanging on the anchor. As I mentioned in another thread, there seems to be a bit of movement in the canyoneering community to replace daisies and/or slings with a length of 6 or 7 mm dynamic cord, tied in a "Purcell prussik" configuration. If you are going to carry an over the shoulder sling anyway for the purpose of anchoring, it is worth considering using one made of 7mm cord.
I wasn't talking about anything near a factor 2 fall. The falls I was thinking about (but have never taken) are those when I am cleaning the top anchor, and get in a situation where for some reason, I have to shift my stance to unweight the bolt to unclip, and in doing so introduce a foot or so of slack into the static sling. Two feet was probably an overstatement.
I am very conscious about when I do this and will grab the chain or do whatever I need to make sure I won't fall, but I still wonder how bad the fall would be if I were to slip. I am not as worried about the equipment as I am about me. I wouldn't think a 1-foot fall could break equipment, but it wouldn't be very pleasant for me.
The move to dynamic cord is interesting but would never catch on in sport climbing. Sport climbers don't seem to want to carry anything but draws, and most of the time they'd rather have other people hang those for them too.
I don't do canyoneering or even know what it is, but I am assuming the application you're talking about is similar, when you have to clip into an anchor but don't want to do it with static material. Is this correct?
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jt512
Dec 19, 2006, 1:48 AM
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s2w wrote: Sport climbers don't seem to want to carry anything but draws, and most of the time they'd rather have other people hang those for them too.
There's hope for you.
Jay
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pro_alien
Dec 19, 2006, 9:10 AM
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caughtinside wrote: classic.
Thank you for the roses... Seriously, when arriving at an anchor I prefer a quick tie-in that requires minimal futzing around while frazzled or sketched. The 60cm (24") sling girth-hitched to the harness fit the bill most of the time.
But - in another thread there is some more hard information that will make me try the Purcell Prusik...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=1504055;#1504055
Pascal
... Please wait while brain is being defrazzed ... [42%]
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jt512
Dec 19, 2006, 9:15 AM
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pro_alien wrote: caughtinside wrote: classic. Thank you for the roses... Seriously, when arriving at an anchor I prefer a quick tie-in that requires minimal futzing around while frazzled or sketched.
For heaven's sake it's a sport anchor. Try just keeping your shit together for a second.
Jay
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redpoint73
Dec 19, 2006, 4:56 PM
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pro_alien wrote: Umm, when you reach the top of the climb, you might happen to be out of draws... Been there, done that, and I did take the number of draws the topo called out... Some people might use the term "overbolting". In Switzerland it is called "plaisir" (fun) climbing. Pascal
Well, that was your first mistake, never trust the bolt count in the topo/guidebook. They are very frequently wrong. They could have been wrong to begin with, or the route may have been retrobolted due to a safety issue.
Alway bring at least one extra anyway. Yes, the count can be wrong, or you may drop one.
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